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Thread: New Metaphysics?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    I have to question your first sentence;
    Its intended to start that way. My idea of God being destroyed and restructured is intended to build a ragnarok effect against the current order.

    I find this anti-Metaphysical and religious. I would rather say that the Cosmos/CHAOS IS Eternal - there is no 'beginning'.
    Entirely possible, except I don't think human consciousness copes with eternity that well, he's got to have some point of reference. My point is there but it doesn't have any time connection with the current order. Eternal reccurance, while a very cool theory, is something I don't think is suitable for a WN philosophy, or any kind of Western Aryan philosophy. Define "anti-Metaphysical".
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, December 11th, 2006 at 02:06 PM. Reason: updated thread
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    I feel that the positing of a 'beginning' negates a fulsome conception of a 'beyond' [taking metaphysical in the Platonic mode].
    It is rather analogous to merely human experience, reasoning that everything must have a beginning because we creatures are finite things, born at a specific moment in Time.

    It is an anthropomorphic view and therefore religious.
    It is easy to understand that the world is born like a baby - too easy, and human all too human.

    The Semitic religions all talk in these terms of 'in the beginning' etc.,

    Whereas Aryan spirituality tends toward the view of Eternity.
    Its very difficulty recommends it, because 'in the beginning' can only be thought in a superficial way.
    Once you start to take the chain of cause and effect backwards you encounter problems - where is the 'beginning'?

    I think it is a cycle and the 'end' meets the 'beginning' everywhere in a ceaseless spiral of Becoming.

    Nietzsche took the idea of Eternity from Heraclitus, and I feel that it is the true Aryan outlook.
    I regard all 'beginnings' as having a Semitic cast.

    Our Spirits are Eternal, without beginning or End.

    [p.s. Ragnarok is not the End, but a New Beginning, although I accept that the Eddas have some Christian influence in them].
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, April 14th, 2003 at 05:54 PM.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    I feel that the positing of a 'beginning' negates a fulsome conception of a 'beyond' [taking metaphysical in the Platonic mode].
    Understandable - but within cyclical history (i.e. big bang big crunch big bang again...), you've still got to have a beginning of this cycle. Besides that you've got possibilities of multiple universes and/or dimensions. Its interesting all up.

    It is rather analogous to merely human experience, reasoning that everything must have a beginning because we creatures are finite things, born at a specific moment in Time.
    True. But you abolish the idea of time, in favour of eternal recurrance, cyclical history or something else and human achievements and deeds seem pointless.

    The Semitic religions all talk in these terms of 'in the beginning' etc.,

    Whereas Aryan spirituality tends toward the view of Eternity.
    Its very difficulty recommends it, because 'in the beginning' can only be thought in a superficial way.
    Once you start to take the chain of cause and effect backwards you encounter problems - where is the 'beginning'?
    I have to agree. Eternity is a difficult concept, and Plato's first cause seems a cop out to me.

    I think it is a cycle and the 'end' meets the 'beginning' everywhere in a ceaseless spiral of Becoming.
    Nietzsche thought the same thing. An idea of cyclical chaos theory is just... I don't know

    Nietzsche took the idea of Eternity from Heraclitus, and I feel that it is the true Aryan outlook.
    I regard all 'beginnings' as having a Semitic cast.
    Looking back on what I wrote, I think its more Hegelian than Semetic, but I suppose once the Empire collapses it'll split up reform, and it'll all move on again. The same Spirit will keep going.

    Our Spirits are Eternal, without beginning or End.
    I don't think individuals have "spirits". We just have consciousness, the ability to reason, and the common racial Spirit (singular) which drives us.

    [p.s. Ragnarok is not the End, but a New Beginning, although I accept that the Eddas have some Christian influence in them].
    I always thought Ragnarok was the beginning and the end at the same time. I haven't read the Eddas - what Christian influence do you see in them?
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post My Metaphysics Taking Shape

    1. The Discernment.

    The Eddas are essential to our outlook within the ambit of tradition and lore.
    Unfortunately they were transmitted during the Middle Ages via channelers who were Christian.
    The Prose Edda by Snorri is a great work of synthesis [of pagan/christian lore]. However, the pagan and christian elements are combinded rather than blended, and one can siphon them off one from the other.
    The Poetic Edda ia an anonymous collection of material on which the Prose Edda largely draws; Christian influence is discernable in some parts, particularly in the eschatological interpretation of Ragnarok. Also in the treatment of Baldur as a Christ-like figure.

    If one thinks of Virgil's famous Pastorals where a saviour figure is mentioned pre-Christianity, we see how that was seized upon by Christians in the later Empire to say that Christianity was pre-empted by the pagans!

    So the pagan spirtuality was incorporated and tainted by the Christians, and in the case of the Eddas, we do not have extant pre-Christian examples to draw from.

    The reason I mention Virgil there, is to suggest that Baldur's Christliness may have been alll his own and naturally high-lighted by the Christian scribes who wrote the myths down.

    So part of our work is to take traditions and lore like the Eddas, the Arthurian Cycles etc., and extract the Aryan essence from them, and discard the Semitic chaff.

    An example would be the supposed 'ending' of Ragnarok, which shows some Christian influence, and the tale that in Ragnarok Odinn will whisper a secret word in Baldur's ear.
    Pagans take that word to be 'rebirth', hence the cyclical nature of the real myths which have much in common with the Hindu writings.
    Also, 'rune' means 'whisper' and 'mystery, or secret'; therefore the endless nature of Runic transformation is hinted at.

    Such aspects as the latter would have not been apparent to the Christian scribes, and it is in those parts of the Eddas which were just copied down without comprehension where we see the Aryan quality strongest.

    A good book for studying the Eddas in an Aryan context is 'The Masks of Odin'.

    2. The Massy Spirit.

    I have a slight problem with the idea of us having only a 'singular' spirit. Spirit, like its modern materialist version 'consciousness', is a complex thing and is only caught sight of in glimpses.
    In mystic awe, in musical experience, in Poetry we can feel the immanence of the Spirits who are manifold and given the names of the Gods and Goddesses of our Aryan pantheons.
    To me, Aryan consciousness or Spirituality is a vast thing which only a few have even grasped a fraction of.

    3. Kuklos.

    The basic difference is between the linear progressus and the circular return.
    The former is seen in Semitic accounts where there is a clear beginning and a progression towards an end-time, whether it be a Final Judgement or an Apocalypse.
    In Hegel everything is working towards the apotheosis of the Spirit.

    I discern in Aryan spirituality something very different - the Eternal Return of complex cycles.
    This feature is found in anything from Vedic scripture to Spenglerian philosophy.

    The beauty of Nietzsche's version of 'The Eternal Recurrence of the Same' is the thought that the great 'gods' of Aryanism [or Superhumans] are reincarnating in epochs through the Ages.
    The Great Men will come again and again into infinity.
    See Savitri Devi's philosophy for this idea.

    4. Timelessness.

    The idea of Time as we know it is something of a construct. Advances in science imply that 'Time' is a limitation of our consciousnesses, and that existence takes place outside of Time.
    Indeed, Metaphysics itself is beyond moribund Time.
    Savitri Devi called the Aryan hero the 'Man Against Time'.

    5. Beginning of the End.

    The point is that there is no beginning as such; there is merely a transformation from one state to another state within another cycle. Yes, cycles are multiple and overlap in ways beyond our human comprehension.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, April 16th, 2003 at 07:47 PM.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Post Re: My Metaphysics Taking Shape

    Originally posted by Moody Lawless
    1. The Discernment.

    The Eddas are essential to our outlook within the ambit of tradition and lore.
    Unfortunately they were transmitted during the Middle Ages via channelers who were Christian.
    The Prose Edda by Snorri is a great work of synthesis [of pagan/christian lore]. However, the pagan and christian elements are combinded rather than blended, and one can siphon them off one from the other.
    The Poetic Edda ia an anonymous collection of material on which the Prose Edda largely draws; Christian influence is discernable in some parts, particularly in the eschatological interpretation of Ragnarok. Also in the treatment of Baldur as a Christ-like figure.

    If one thinks of Virgil's famous Pastorals where a saviour figure is mentioned pre-Christianity, we see how that was seized upon by Christians in the later Empire to say that Christianity was pre-empted by the pagans!

    So the pagan spirtuality was incorporated and tainted by the Christians, and in the case of the Eddas, we do not have extant pre-Christian examples to draw from.

    The reason I mention Virgil there, is to suggest that Baldur's Christliness may have been alll his own and naturally high-lighted by the Christian scribes who wrote the myths down.

    So part of our work is to take traditions and lore like the Eddas, the Arthurian Cycles etc., and extract the Aryan essence from them, and discrad the Semitic chaff.

    An example would be the supposed 'ending' of Ragnarok, which shows some Christian influence, and the tale that in Ragnarok Odinn will whisper a secret word in Baldur's ear.
    Pagans take that word to be 'rebirth', hence the cyclical nature of the real myths which have much in common with the Hindu writings.
    Also, 'rune' means 'whisper' and 'mystery, or secret'; therefore the endless nature of Runic transformation is hinted at.

    Such aspects as latter would have not been apparent to the Christian scribes, and it is in those parts of the Eddas which were just copied down without comprehension where we see the Aryan quality strongest.

    A good book for studying the Eddas in an Aryan context is 'The Masks of Odin'.
    Thanks, I'll try buy the Eddas and find that book.

    2. The Massy Spirit.

    I have a slight problem with the idea of us having only a 'singular' spirit. Spirit, like its modern materialist version 'consciousness', is a complex thing and is only caught sight of in glimpses.
    In mystic awe, in musical experience, in Poetry we can feel the immanence of the Spirits who are manifold and given the names of the Gods and Goddesses of our Aryan pantheons.
    To me, Aryan consciousness or Spirituality is a vast thing which only a few have even grasped a fraction of.
    That's sort of what I was referring to when I said "Spirit".

    3. Kuklos.

    The basic difference is between the linear progressus and the circular return.
    The former is seen in Semitic accounts where there is a clear beginning and a progression towards an end-time, whether it be a Final Judgement or an Apocalypse.
    In Hegel everything is working towards the apotheosis of the Spirit.

    I discern in Aryan spirituality something very different - the Eternal Return of complex cycles.
    This feature is found in anything from Vedic scripture to Spenglerian philosophy.
    Cycles (life, death, rebirth of the individual) within cycles (rise and fall of races) within cycles (big bang big crunch)? I get what you're saying but I found no real referance to cyclical history in the Hindu Upanishads.

    The beauty of Nietzsche's version of 'The Eternal Recurrence of the Same' is the thought that the great 'gods' of Aryanism [or Superhumans] are reincarnating in epochs throuh the Ages.
    The Great Men will come again and again into infinity.
    See Savitri Devi's philosophy for this idea.
    And what about the common man?

    4. Timelessness.

    The idea of Time as we know it is something of a construct. Advances in science imply that 'Time' is a limitation of our consciousnesses, and that existence takes place outside of Time.
    Indeed, Metaphysics itself is beyond moribund Time.
    Savitri Devi called the Aryan hero the 'Man Against Time'.
    I think I'm making sense of what you're saying. Time is a construct of man within Existance created from his subjective consciousness. As everything is the rise and fall of organic things within the rise and fall of the universe, man can't percieve these cycles and so looks at them from a linear perspective. I think...

    5. Beginning of the End.

    The point is that there is no beginning as such; there is merely a transformation from one state to another state within another cycle. Yes, cycles are multiple and overlap in ways beyond our human comprehension.
    Ok. Now how do we tie this in with blood and spiritual racialism?
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    "Now how do we tie this in with blood and spiritual racialism?"
    We view Blood as 'a very special fluid'.

    See my 'Of Necessity/Blood and Soil/Aryanosophy' thread;
    http://forums.skadi.net/necessity_bl...phy-t1595.html
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, December 11th, 2006 at 02:13 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: Whereto Metaphusika?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    2. Metaphysics.

    Now if we concentrate on the West, then we have to view Metaphysics within the ambit of the West [and leave aside the Metaphysics developed in Aryan India as racially incompatible].

    It is clear to me that Metaphysics in the West came to an end with Nietzsche; the phase of some 2 millennia from Platonism to Nietzscheanism is exhausted.
    God is Dead, and so is Metaphysics.

    I have to disagree here. Eastern and western metaphysics aren't incompatible, Martin Heidegger for example closed the gap between both. And metaphysics aren't dead, because reality isn't dead yet. The powers that be trashed metaphysics because it's was simply impossible to alter logic by means of money. Logic is truly independent and what they can't control has to go. In order to understand what happened to metaphysics, ons has to go back to the time when things changed. Metaphysics had to go because the bourgeoisie - the new established rulling class - couldn't control it.

    "And now that the development of capitalism and parliamentarism has borne its fruits, and the bourgeoisie has exhausted every generous sentiment and progressive elan by the practice of political and economic competition, it is reduced to having to defend its privileges with force and deceit, while its philosophers cannot defend it against the socialist attacks except by bringing up, inopportunely, the law of vital competition."

    -- Errico Malatesta, Mutual Aid, ~1920

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: New Metaphysics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakunin View Post
    I have to disagree here. Eastern and western metaphysics aren't incompatible
    You may be right on the intellectual/spiritual level; I was responding to the suggestion of a practical Pan-East-West metaphyics based on the view of Aryanism [I suppose Blavatsky's Theosophy came close to this], that could be embraced by the racialist movement today.

    I opined that the racial differences between those of the East and West would be too wide to make this practicable.

    Martin Heidegger for example closed the gap between both. And metaphysics aren't dead, because reality isn't dead yet.
    He did, but he found himself more and more unable to take action as he closed that gap within himself.
    He found himself waiting upon Being.

    I say that the outlook demanded must include action if it is to interest the Aryans of the West.

    Incidentally, Heidegger agreed with Nietzsche that the latter brought Western metaphysics to an end. The difference being that Heidegger saw Nietzsche as being part of that movement, whereas Nietzsche saw himself as outside of it and the start of the new departure - the philosophy of the future.

    I made the important distinction in the earlier posts of this thread between the idealistic and Platonic metaphysics [this is the movement which had 'died'], and the 'realist' [for want of a better word] metaphysics of 'first philosophy' [or else ontology] which latter certainly won't die because, as you suggest, it is concerned with "reality".

    So the 'death of metaphysics' refers only to that idealist tradition out of Platonism which informed Christian theology too [Nietzsche calls Christianity 'Platonism for the people'].

    The powers-that-be trashed metaphysics because it's was simply impossible to alter logic by means of money. Logic is truly independent and what they can't control has to go. In order to understand what happened to metaphysics, one has to go back to the time when things changed. Metaphysics had to go because the bourgeoisie - the new established rulling class - couldn't control it.
    That's an interesting thesis - I would like to hear it in more detail - with names of philosophical, political movements and events etc.,

    The Nietzschean view is that [idealist] metaphysics came to the end of its natural life and collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions, contradictions which it could no longer paper-over and hide.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: New Metaphysics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    You may be right on the intellectual/spiritual level; I was responding to the suggestion of a practical Pan-East-West metaphyics based on the view of Aryanism [I suppose Blavatsky's Theosophy came close to this], that could be embraced by the racialist movement today.

    He did, but he found himself more and more unable to take action as he closed that gap within himself.
    He found himself waiting upon Being.

    I say that the outlook demanded must include action if it is to interest the Aryans of the West.
    I think we first have to distinguish between metaphysics and philosophy on one side, and ideology and propaganda on the other. Ideology is a kind of fake philosohy which only exist to bring forward some usually subversive agenda. Like the ideology Leo Strauss - the father of the neo-cons - created. Philosohy and metaphysics are concerned with truth and reality, while ideology usually neglets both in favor of some agenda. Metaphysic exists for the sake of knowledge and wisdom, not actions.

    And knowledge and wisdom should be of interest to all of humanity - knowledge is power.

    "The philosopher is in love with truth, that is, not with the changing world of sensation, which is the object of opinion, but with the unchanging reality which is the object of knowledge."

    -- Plato


    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    I made the important distinction in the earlier posts of this thread between the idealistic and Platonic metaphysics [this is the movement which had 'died'], and the 'realist' [for want of a better word] metaphysics of 'first philosophy' [or else ontology] which latter certainly won't die because, as you suggest, it is concerned with "reality".

    So the 'death of metaphysics' refers only to that idealist tradition out of Platonism which informed Christian theology too [Nietzsche calls Christianity 'Platonism for the people'].

    You talk about the old philosophical conflict between Plato the "idealist", and Aristotle the "realist" right? These old conflict exists still today. None of these movements really died. The "powers that be" supressed the idealist movement because it was in direct conflict with there agenda and still is. Same happened to the anarchists btw.

    These so called "realists" are nothing more than intellectual prostitutes, slaves of the establishment, enemy's of the people! The time of the "end" of the idealists marks the victory of hippocrasy over truth in history. We still have to live with the consequences today, in politics, the media, hippocrasy is everywhere! Im truly sick of it.

    Im not sure what to think about Nietzsche, but christianity is pure hippocrasy, and probably always was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    That's an interesting thesis - I would like to hear it in more detail - with names of philosophical, political movements and events etc.,
    I can try to give a small overview about what happened and some dates and names (it's a huge subject). It all started around the time of the french revolution, when the "powers that be" feared to totally loose control.


    "The higher education would give less ground for the complaint that it throws into society crowds of ambitious persons without any means of satisfying their desires, and interested in the overthrow of the State; people without employment and unable to get any, good for nothing and believing themselves fit for anything, especially for the direction of public affairs. Scientific studies do not so inflate the mind. They enlighten and regulate it at once; they fit men for practical life. . . ."

    -- M. Chevalier, around the time of the french revolution


    In order to keep there power, some very important changes were made in key areas of society (they exist still today for the very reason of keeping the population under control):


    - Economy: Industrialisation (the end of the independent worker)
    - Education: compulsory schooling, fragmented education, indoctrination
    - Scince: fragmentation (the "dead" of metaphysics (ontology) and reason in scince)
    - Politics: fragmentation, birth of parliamentarism (neo-plutocracy)


    These changes than slowly lead to the end of the Age of Enlightenment. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon - the first person to call him self an anarchist and one of the last metaphysicians - wrote a lot about these changes in society. Anarchists are fighting against these changes ever since.

    "Since the establishment of large factories, a multitude of little industries have disappeared from the domestic hearth: does any one believe that the girls who work for ten and fifteen cents have as much intelligence as their ancestors?"

    -- Proudhon, „The Philosophy of Misery“, 1846


    "The people, unfortunately, are still very ignorant, and are kept in ignorance by the systematic efforts of all the governments, who consider this ignorance, not without good reason, as one of the essential conditions of their own power."

    -- Mikhail Bakunin (1814-1876)


    "The scientist of today is distressed by the fact that the results of his scientific work have created a threat to mankind since they have fallen into the hands of morally blind exponents of political power. He is conscious of the fact that technological methods, made possible by his work, have led to a concentration of economic and also of political power in the hands of small minorities which have come to dominate completely the lives of the masses of people, who appear more and more amorphous. But even worse: the concentration of economic and political power has not only made the man of science dependent economically, it also threatens his independence from within; the shrewd methods of intellectual and psychic influences which it brings to bear will prevent the development of independent personalities."

    -- Albert Einstein, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, 1952
    Last edited by Bakunin; Thursday, December 7th, 2006 at 07:46 PM.

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    Re: New Metaphysics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakunin View Post
    but christianity is pure hippocrasy, and probably always was.
    Keep telling yourself that.

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