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Thread: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Post Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    First, let us define what the State is. I put foward Max Weber's definition of the State as organisation with the ability to assert violence over a section of territory. This definition may be disputed but we're going to have to agree what it is before we can debate on whether either the Fascist or National Socialist conception of the State is correct.

    And now, to outline the case:

    Fascist conception of the State: That the State forms the Nation.

    National Socialist conception of the State: That the Nation forms the State.

    Which is correct? I volunteer to advance the Fascist case, I nominate Aryan Kreiger to advance the National Socialist case. Let it begin.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Member Zvonimir's Avatar
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    Post Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    I believe NS concept is correct.

    State is an artificial tool that serves and guards nation and its interests.
    Other way around doesn't make sense. Why something artificial would had meaning only for itself.
    One nation, one state, one leader.

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    Post AW: Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvonimir
    I believe NS concept is correct.

    State is an artificial tool that serves and guards nation and its interests.
    Other way around doesn't make sense. Why something artificial would had meaning only for itself.
    Agreed. Community (Nation) -> State.

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Please provide the reasoning for how a Nation creates a State, and also, please provide reasoning of how a Nation as an extended network of self-conscious communities with a common identity comes into being.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
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    Post Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    A nation is a quasi-biological entity, and the generation of a particular mode of government arises from the organic impulses of the Folk in question.

    There are other glaring differences between Fascism and NS as well; the contrast between Fascism's futurist, somewhat technocratic outlook and the environmentally holistic, almost pastoral ideal of much of NS doctrine (though admittedly there is variation within both schools). NS seemed to look back to the past romantically, to aspire to an almost mythological worldview, while Fascism was decidedly unromantic, utilitarian and progressive.

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    Post Re: AW: Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Ripper
    Please provide the reasoning for how a Nation creates a State, and also, please provide reasoning of how a Nation as an extended network of self-conscious communities with a common identity comes into being.
    Nation is group of people which mostly share common ancestors, culture, language etc. It's natural being by itself, not something artificially created.
    Nation's interests are self preservation in every way, economical prosper etc. and that are reasons for creating a state.

    For question how nation creates a state look in European history of 18. and 19. century, you'll find good examples.

    What's your side of story?

    Stríbog, Mussolini wanted to restore Roman empire, that's quite romantic. Don't you think?
    One nation, one state, one leader.

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    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvonimir
    Stríbog, Mussolini wanted to restore Roman empire, that's quite romantic. Don't you think?
    He wanted to restore the political Imperium because he felt that it had been Italy at its greatest, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wanted to revert to a mythological way of life. It is my understanding that Fascism and corporatism were extremely futuristic and regarded the technological state as a worthy goal. NS distrusted the technocratic state, regarding it as an unnatural and inorganic separation of the folk from Nature, and the emphasis NS Germany placed on industry and science was largely for military purposes. The intention of several NS leaders seems to have been a reversion to an agrarian, folkish community after victory in the war.

    Fascist Italy did not have the occult and legendary perspectives on history and prehistory that NS Germany did. There was no Romulus and Remus Society to correspond to the Thule Society; Mussolini did not send expeditions to find Shambhala or search for Atlantis, at least not that I know of. Mussolini was not really interested in Hyperborea, Aryan migrations, or even general racial history.

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    Post Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Agree about mythology, but he wanted to revive past glory and that's IMO romantic.
    One nation, one state, one leader.

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    Post Re: AW: Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Ripper
    Please provide the reasoning for how a Nation creates a State, and also, please provide reasoning of how a Nation as an extended network of self-conscious communities with a common identity comes into being.
    The state is an inanimate,soul-less organ,a vehicle for the expression of the Volksgeist. It is only when the state has been formed and moulded by the will of the Volk that it becomes a useful and even desireable entity.
    Your fascistic concept of the state is inorganic; it is not rooted in the expression of the will of the Volksgeist and so it is not formed or moulded by the will of the volk. This makes the state potentially a thing of terror and oppression to its citizens.
    An example of an inorganic and soul-less state not rooted in the will of the Volk or Voelker is the European Union. It did not come into being by the collective will of the Aryan peoples of Europe but is an organisation that has been created by Zionist and Capitalist forces to create a single economic market and this necessitates a breaking down of national and ethnic boundaries and the introduction of a multiracial society. This is against the will and the wellbeing of the Aryan nations of Europe. It uses arbitary laws not founded on ancient principles to silence,punish and oppress those who speak out against it: that is an expression of fascism.
    National Socialism and a National Socialist state is the expression of the Aryan Volksgeist.

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    Post Re: AW: Re: Conceptions of the State: Fascism vs National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Ripper
    Please provide the reasoning for how a Nation creates a State, and also, please provide reasoning of how a Nation as an extended network of self-conscious communities with a common identity comes into being.
    Is this discussion factual (did the Nation create the State?) or normative (should the Nation create the State?)?

    If is is factual, it is obvious that many Nations were created by States out of more or less diverse ethnicities and local groups (Sweden is an example. In the South we had Danes, and we also had Götar and Svear, and a lot of Finns and Samis, but today they are all "Swedes"). Benedict Anderson has written a good book about this, The Imagined Community. We shouldt underestimate the power of the Nation though, it has often proved to be difficult to forge a Nation of different groups, and at times Nations have, through Nationalism, created States (Italy would be an example).

    If it is a normative discussion, I'm for the NS concept of the State, basically because a State of their own is valuable in preserving the culture, genotype and general wellbeing of a Nation. Regional autonomy for historical minorities may be necessary in some cases, but generally any people has the right to be ruled by their own.

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