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Thread: Transylvanian Saxons: the Ethnic Germans of Transylvania

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    I'd like to put a new addition in this thread, a picture I just uploaded in the gallery. The picture is of Transylvanian Saxon settlers, by Georg Bleibtreu from the year 1884.


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    Sachsentreffen 2008

    Sachsentreffen Birthaelm 2008













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    Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - Faust I)

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    Transylvanian Saxon Churches

    Kerz











    Grossau



    Bussd



    Hetzeldorf











    Michelsberg





    Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - Faust I)

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    Another addition to this theme. A map of the concentration of Transylvanian Saxons in Germany. Most of them are located in the Southern states of Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg.


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    Romanian Saxons

    I recently meet two Romanians who were living in the Czech republic, the male had blue eyes, fair skin and dark blonde hair so I naturally assumed he was Czech, his girlfriend was very Eastern Slavic looking, though she mentioned her cousin had blonde hair. I think they may have been Romanian Saxons. They often brought up how they hated gypsies. I know we have some Romanian Saxon forum members and was wondering what is the situation like in Romania for Romanian Saxons? Apparently they were sent there to defend the southeastern border of the Kingdom of Hungary. And I was recently reading about Vlad the Impaler’s impaling of Transylvanian Saxons settlers. Then how they were persecuted by the Soviets after ww2 with many sent to labour camps. I know many Saxons have emigrated back to Germany where they have the right to German citizenship. And that the German military began withdrawing the Saxons from Transylvania once Romanians signed peace treaty with the Germans. I was wondering how many of you are left there? And why don’t you emigrate to Germany? And how pure is the blood, are blond hair and blue eyes common? How do the local Slavic population treat you guys?

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    Senior Member Erbe's Avatar
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    Glad to see a thread like this made it here. As a Transylvanian Saxon i am obliged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Den groda View Post
    I recently meet two Romanians who were living in the Czech republic, the male had blue eyes, fair skin and dark blonde hair so I naturally assumed he was Czech, his girlfriend was very Eastern Slavic looking, though she mentioned her cousin had blonde hair. I think they may have been Romanian Saxons.
    Do you think or are you sure they were Transylvanian Saxons? Having blue eyes, fair skin and blonde hair doesn't prove anything, there are Magyars looking like that in Romania, and also Romanians. Also people of mixed descend. And in Eastern part of Romania it could also be a Slavic influence, not just Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Den groda View Post
    They often brought up how they hated gypsies.
    Almost everyone in (or from) Romania hates gypsies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Den groda View Post
    Then how they were persecuted by the Soviets after ww2 with many sent to labour camps.
    The Soviets... they just wanted to destroy the elites, by sending the people they found more intelligent or remarkable to labour camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Den groda View Post
    And that the German military began withdrawing the Saxons from Transylvania once Romanians signed peace treaty with the Germans.
    I know this may be a bit off-topic, but as far as I know and read, in the last part of WW2, the most of people of Germanic descent left Romania (including Northern Bukovina and Bessarabia). At least in those two regions I mentioned, many of them left, as it was a pact between Germany and Sovietic Union to do so at the right moment (Bukowina and Bessarabia were going to be occupied by the Soviets). However, not all the Germans left. My Germanic heritage comes from Bukovina. My great-grandfather remained in Romania, but all his siblings left, during the war or immediately after, either to Germany or to USA. I also know, nowadays, people from Bukovina region of Romania (the Northern part of Bukovina is part of Ukraina as we're speaking) who are ethnically Germans, or who have strong Germanic heritage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Den groda View Post
    And how pure is the blood, are blond hair and blue eyes common? How do the local Slavic population treat you guys?
    The local Slavic population? What do you mean? There aren't so many Slavic people in Romania. It seems like many people have a wrong idea about what Romania is and what kind of people inhabit Romania. No, Romanians speak a Latin language, unlike all the peoples surrounding them, who speak Slavic languages (excepting Hungary, of course). So Romanians have more in common with Italians, for example, than with the Russians. However, Romanian population is quite mixed, at least in my opinion, as I know many Romanians who have either Slavic (Polish, Russian, Ukrainean, whatever), Turkish, Greek, Germanic or even Gypsie (Romanians are not Gypsies, but some of them have mixed heritage, and that's something different) ad-mixture. Not to speak about the wars fought in that area, during the centuries, and how many rapes the Turks or the Slavs could have had committed. But this doesn't make them Slavs, even if some may have a Slavic admixture, their background is, let's say, Thracian (the founders of ancient Rome were also Thracians, by the way).

    And as for Transylvanian Saxons, I suppose they had enough motivation to preserve their ethnicity and identity, being surrounded by majorities of other ethnicities. However, I suppose not every single Saxon did that, so some may have mixed with other local people. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, I'd rather let others speak about this, who may know the situation better.
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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    I know this may be a bit off-topic, but as far as I know and read, in the last part of WW2, the most of people of Germanic descent left Romania (including Northern Bukovina and Bessarabia). At least in those two regions I mentioned, many of them left, as it was a pact between Germany and Sovietic Union to do so at the right moment (Bukowina and Bessarabia were going to be occupied by the Soviets). However, not all the Germans left. My Germanic heritage comes from Bukovina. My great-grandfather remained in Romania, but all his siblings left, during the war or immediately after, either to Germany or to USA. I also know, nowadays, people from Bukovina region of Romania (the Northern part of Bukovina is part of Ukraina as we're speaking) who are ethnically Germans, or who have strong Germanic heritage.
    Transylvania was partitioned - the border drawn by Hitler personally some said, to settle down the conflict between Germany's two allies, Hungary and Romania.

    That way the Northern part came to Hungary, the rest stayed with Romania.

    In the Northern part the evacuation was ordered, so practically nobody stood behind. The trecks were directly organised and formed partly by SS-commands.

    The larger part of the Transylvanian Saxons living in the South were not evacuated in the same orderly or even forced manner, many stood behind, in many areas the vast majority actually.

    When Romania signed a peace treaty with the Soviets in 1944, the German military began withdrawing the Saxons from Transylvania; this operation was most thorough with the Saxons of the Nösnerland. Around 100,000 Germans fled before the Soviet Red Army, but Romania did not conduct the expulsion of Germans as did neighboring countries at war's end. However, more than 70,000 Saxons were arrested by the Soviet Army and sent to labour camps in Ukraine for alleged cooperation with Germany.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transyl...and_afterwards

    Nösnerland was in the North.

    Map of Europe 1940:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...940_map_de.png

    You can see the North of Transylvania being Hungarian territory after the Second Vienna Award.

    Look for the borders after the First:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vienna_Award

    and Second Vienna Award, which resulted in Hungarians getting a share of their former (pre 1st WW) territory:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vienna_Award

    Hungary wanted especially the ethnically close Hungarian Szeklers in their territory.

    Today most of Transylvania has a huge Gypsy/Roma problem, most Germans are gone, though numbers still live there, a minority even migrated back after being disappointed by the current situation in "modern Germany" (FRG).
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Transylvania was partitioned - the border drawn by Hitler personally some said
    The decision was made by german and italian leaders in order to win Hungary for German war aims by granting the northern part (including Nösnerland) and some of the central and eastern part of Transylvania back to Hungary. This of course meant that when the outcome of the war changed and Romania switched sides by joining forces with the Soviet Union, the saxons remained in Southern -Transylvania in the Altland (Hermannstadt Provinz) and Burzenland region (where some of my folk lived) were practically stuck and did not have the same opportunity to be evacuated as was in the case of the Nösnerland saxons, which made their situation even more complicated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Today most of Transylvania has a huge Gypsy/Roma problem, most Germans are gone, though numbers still live there

    That's true, there are entire saxon villages that are completely abandoned therefore serving as a refugee for gypsies.
    I've made a set of photos when I've visited some of these villages a few weeks ago which I may post later.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    a minority even migrated back after being disappointed by the current situation in "modern Germany" (FRG).
    Most of these migrants started out investing in small businesses at the point of their return. Some of these flourished others didn't, however the general consensus, especially among those who left to the Fatherland, is that it is disadvantageous to live in Transylvania regarding the present romanian circumstances.
    :Überschöpfung:



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    were practically stuck and did not have the same opportunity to be evacuated as was in the case of the Nösnerland saxons, which made their situation even more complicated.
    From what I know, many didn't wanted to go anyway and a certain number of the Northern ones were practically ordered to forced to leave their lands.

    And many Transylvanian Saxons in the South were rather naive, thought nothing that bad would happen. After all, one can't compare the situation in Romania with that in Poland and Czechia were much more hatred was involved between the two people.

    In Romania, a large part of cruelties against Germans were done by Communist partisans, of which a large portion was Jewish. I read various accounts for their bestiality against German soldiers and civilians, especially in the first months after the German army left. They felt like masters and treated the Germans like dirt, which were not longer able to defend themselves. Also some Romanians trapped German units, some even regretted to be traitors and now on the Soviet side, but obviously Romania just knew it was over and switched the sides to save as much as possible in the face of the inevitable.

    So again, I wouldn't compare the situation in Romania with that of the Czechs and Poles.

    Just recently I got this information about the Romanian stance towards the Germans:
    "Wir wissen, dass wir die Zeit nicht zurückdrehen können, um das während der Diktatur begangene Unrecht wiedergutzumachen. Wir wissen aber auch, dass unter der neuen Konstellation gute Voraussetzungen bestehen, damit Sie erneut kulturelle, soziale, wirtschaftliche oder politische Beziehungen in Rumänien knüpfen können. Ich möchte Ihnen sagen, dass Rumänien Sie vermisst. Rumänien, die Rumänen, aber auch meine Regierung erwarten diejenigen von Ihnen, die die Beziehungen zur Heimat Ihrer Vorfahren neu knüpfen wollen, mit offenen Armen." Vasile Blaga, Innenminister von Rumänien im Mai 2010
    A great gesture.

    In Romania the real dangerous enemies of the German people were rarely the Romanians, though conflicts can come up at times too of course...

    Most Germans today have more problems with the Gypsies in my opinion - like every European.

    One has just to watch that BBC documentary:
    YouTube- This World. Gypsy Child Thieves. [part 1/6]

    YouTube- This World. Gypsy Child Thieves. [part 2/6]

    YouTube- This World. Gypsy Child Thieves. [part 3/6]

    YouTube- This World. Gypsy Child Thieves. [part 4/6]

    YouTube- This World. Gypsy Child Thieves. [part 5/6]

    YouTube- This World. Gypsy Child Thieves. [part 6/6]
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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