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Thread: Women as Warriors in History

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    Re: Women as Warriors in History

    http://www.geocities.com/prisoner_girl/Joan_Myths.html

    It's commonly believed that Joan of Arc "violated the norms" of her society by being given titular command of an army and wearing "male" armor, even though there were actually a number of women who led armies and/or wore armor during that era, including Countess Jeanne de Penthièvre, Marcia Ordelaffi, Jeanne de Belleville, Lady de Châtillon and Countess Jeanne de Montfort. Such women were fulfilling their societal roles under the laws of feudalism rather than "breaking the rules".

    In an era in which political power was vested in the hands of aristocratic families, noble women were expected and required to lead, either directly or symbolically, their family's forces if their husband or son were unavailable, and the armor they wore was quite feminine, by definition (plate armor had to be precisely contoured to the shape of the wearer's body, with predictable results; and this can be seen in a surviving image of Joan of Arc's armor at the Abbey of St. Denis. Armor was not viewed as exclusively "male" in that era, any more than a bullet-proof vest is exclusively "male".

    Like Joan of Arc, these other women generally had no more than nominal command of their armies (with experienced captains providing most of the direct leadership, although the Countess of Montfort and Jeanne de Belleville took a more direct role). From a cultural standpoint, Joan of Arc would have been unusual mainly in the sense that she wasn't of noble birth and was not granted noble status until December 29, 1429, about halfway through her military campaigns.

    While we're at it: she was probably the mildest of the many women who took part in the Hundred Years War: her own testimony makes it clear that she did not see a combat role for herself (she said that she carried her banner into battle rather than a weapon, adding that she had never killed anyone). The retrial testimony of her former comrades revealed that she wept constantly over the deaths of troops on both sides. Women such as Jeanne de Belleville (known as "the bloody lionness") were far less compassionate.

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    Re: Women as Warriors in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Haplotype I
    Joan of Arc, while a Christian, broke the rules of women being oppressed in Judaic-Christian societies.
    Sure.......................take a devout Catholic and try claiming her as your own. And she was far from some "macho" woman as you're trying to claim she was, ie throwing off the "oppression" of women by Christianity.


    http://www.geocities.com/prisoner_girl/Joan_Myths.html


    When asked why she wasn't doing such "womanly duties" in late 1429 and early 1430, she merely replied (with her usual matter-of-factness) that there were an abundant number of other women who were already doing such tasks. These comments would not seem to reflect a "feminist philosophy" (a feminist would presumably call for an end to such roles for women rather than embracing them with such enthusiasm... surely, I can't picture Gloria Steinem boasting about her prowess at household chores).

    Nor does she seem to have been a "tomboy" as a child: as even Victoria Sackville-West points out, she was probably closer to the opposite extreme, having been inordinately quiet and always "busy with her duster" (to paraphrase the above author) . Some would say that this is somehow incompatible with her later activities; but if you look at the women in the modern U.S. or Israeli militaries, very few of them fit the "tomboy" stereotype, either. And at least those women enthusiastically chose their career, whereas Joan of Arc was reluctant to take on a military role at all, telling Jean de Metz that, in her own vivid words: "I would rather stay at home with my poor mother and do the spinning". She was a courageous heroine, but nevertheless a rather reluctant heroine.

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    Senior Member Karasig's Avatar
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    AW: Re: Women as Warriors in History

    Tjede Peckes (1500-1517), standard-bearer of the Wurster in the battle is archbishop of Bremen Wremer low against-hollows out. born in Padingbüttel-Oberstrich, December 23, 1517 was falling (died in war). she reminds a plaque one of the Wremer ch-foyer ": here fell is 23.12.1517 in the battle, is old Wremer low un fight against dies superior strength of the archbishop Christopher of Bremen 800 Frisian men and women, here top dice flag-virgin Tjede Peckes from Padingbüttel, for country's freedom ".


    - December 1517 - „It has been at small distoyed and selekted world, in which Tjede Peckes lived, but her action something big, because they were for the freedom of her people, and she is worth it that her name remains unforgotten ace shining models of home-love loyally. the tidings of the battle at the Wremer low penetrated through all districts and widens over the German Landesgrenzens out. ace the aged emperor Maximilian from the defeat of the good Frisians heard and something reported him by Tjedes death, he something on the deepest jarred and spoke: „really, it is unfo,rtunate about this flag-virgin. She would have been able to become the mother of many heroes! "
    Last edited by Karasig; Thursday, December 15th, 2005 at 10:42 AM.

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    Re: Women as Warriors in History

    Either way, Women Warriors do seem to be historically the exception rather than the rule (unless we're talking about Manga, Video-Gaming and Fantasy/Sci-Fi art). Exceptions (like Women Warriors) are those more likely to be remembered and talked about - like how Edward Longshanks was nearly 7 feet tall; he towered over the vast majority of the fighting men of his time, who were the typical warriors of 'shorter than modern' stature. Otherwise, all other references are rather more of a 'mythic' quality (the Amazons, etc.)
    --------------------------------------------------------
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    Re: Women as Warriors in History

    There are numerous accounts of woman participating in battle, if not on the battlefield itself, then mostly behind their men, to send them back into war when they chicken out and try to flee.

    I con't see why women shouldn't engage in combat for biological reasons. The ability to buildup muscle is not all that matters; a skilled warrioress can easily tackle 25 body builders for that matter.

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    Re: Women as Warriors in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Bran
    I con't see why women shouldn't engage in combat for biological reasons. The ability to buildup muscle is not all that matters;
    I agree with you that the ability to build up muscle is not all that matters. And that's precisely why we shouldn't routinely send our women to war for biological reasons.

    Consider WWI. Almost an entire generation of young men in England and Germany and probably France as well was slaughtered in that war, leaving a major demographic gap in their home societies.

    Now imagine if we had also lost an entire generation of young women. Viviparous populations (like ours) can recover pretty well from missing males, since there is not nearly as much variability due to age in the male's reproductive capacity. Missing youthful females (the kind who could fight in war), on the other hand, represent a threat to the continued viability of the population. This is why, in the United States at least, it is illegal to kill does during the deer hunt — only bucks may legally be taken.

    Incidentally, this is also why we traditionally treat women with greater deference and courtesy — we only need a few good, healthy men to serve our population, but we need a large stock of good, healthy women — if we treat women poorly, they may not be as fit to carry forward our culture.

    Anyway, if we lose all the men between 19 and 29 in a major war (that age range is not hyperbole — Mozambique, which has had a long and brutal civil war, has lost an even larger age range of its men), then the older men could fill the gap and birth rates could be, perhaps, maintained. But if we also lose all our women between 19 and 29, then our birth rates would drop significantly, leaving us weaker the next time we must go to war.

    In the event of foreign wars, like WWI was for England and Germany, I don't think women should ever be sent into combat en masse — perhaps a few elite troops here and there or spies to go behind enemy lines, but as a percentage of the total fighting force, they should be very very few. Only in the event of invasion should women be called upon to fight, and then only if it is deemed that the outcome of a successful invasion would be roughly equivalent to the destruction of the people (either physically, culturally, or psychologically).

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    AW: Women as Warriors in History

    I think our todays view on female warriors is quite influenced by the judeo-christian (and also ancient romano-greek) role model of a weak and submissive woman.

    Here a quote from Saxo Grammaticus , a danish historian of the 12th century:

    Gesta Danorum (The deeds of the Danes)
    Book IX

    "Among them was Ladgerda, a skilled amazon, who, though a maiden, had the courage of a man, and fought in front among the bravest with her hair loose over her shoulders. All-marvelled at her matchless deeds, for her locks flying down her back betrayed that she was a woman.

    Ragnar, when he had justly cut down the murderer of his grandfather, asked many questions of his fellow soldiers concerning the maiden whom he had seen so forward in the fray, and declared that he had gained the victory by the might of one woman."

    http://www.northvegr.org/lore/saxo/009_01.php

    There are many more passages where shieldmaidens are mentioned by Saxo. Its of course in the early middleages, pre viking era.
    Last edited by Gundahar; Thursday, July 20th, 2006 at 06:09 PM.

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    Re: Women as Warriors in History

    I think some of you have been watching Zena Warrior Princess again.
    LOL!

    Boudiccia was more of a Rioter.
    Joan of Arc was more of a Mascot.

    To say that Boudiccia, was some sort of skilled Military Commander is simply Hog, Wash.
    That’s like saying the LA riots, was a planed assault on the LAPD.
    Poppy cock!

    It Might be better, to say Boudiccia, was a really good politician, or then again maybe she just had fertile ground to lay seeds of revolt, because the Romans were a bunch of oppressive Bastards and her audience including herself, weren’t able to see the final end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    They lived and died for their conviction, the defeat is secondary and pityful, but as a moral lesson their rebellion to injustice and to occupation stands out as examplary for future generation,
    Actually I think the lesson to be learned is that Morality, and convictions don’t win wars. Weapons, Strategy, Discipline and Fire Power, Do.

    Another lesson is what happens when Citizens, Amateurs/Barbarians attempt to fight Real Armies, with nothing but a bit of pent up rage, and a few thousand Lunatics.

    One, thought on the Mythical, Amazon Goddess Warrior, is that she is for the most part simply a Masturbation target for men with low self esteem.

    This image is the same type of sick sex fantasy, you see involved in BSMD, Whips, Chains and Pain.

    These types of men, didn’t just come about in Modern Times, and for the most part, they are generally men in positions of power with how should I say “ Issues”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EQ Fighter View Post
    I think some of you have been watching Zena Warrior Princess again.
    LOL!

    Boudiccia was more of a Rioter.
    Joan of Arc was more of a Mascot.

    To say that Boudiccia, was some sort of skilled Military Commander is simply Hog, Wash.
    That’s like saying the LA riots, was a planed assault on the LAPD.
    Poppy cock!

    I have seen your posts, and it appears to me that rather than an interest in Germanic culture, Spirituality, or politics your main interest here is mysogyny.
    frankly I do not see what your contribution is here. especially since like a typical "American" you write or speak before you know.

    Boudicca burned london (Londinium at the time)to the Ground and wiped out the Roman garrison there. During bthe time that the main Roman forces were away, boudicca knew enough to begin to send embassadors to the kings of the other celtic tribes in order to prepare for a decisive battle. She convinced them to join up ...Iceni Smiths
    produced weapons which were subsidised by boudiccas personal treasure. after the iceni lost one battle boudicca regrouped and acording to tacitus sent 250,000
    celts into the field. This was probably a Roman exageration. In the end the Romans won, but you forgot to mention in your misogynistic post that the Romans always won over the Celts and everybody else (Exept the Germans, ha!)..
    That is how the Romans came to be in Britain in the first place.
    Looked at objectively I do not see why you would presume to compare the war of the Iceni with the LA riots, that is Unhistorical and disrespectful of an historic figure who will be known long after you are dead and forgotten. The celts being rathe close in many places with the germanics, Bouidiccas historical integrity is important to Germanics. if you were writing about some African tribe or South American entities I would not care.
    Not only that, but by posting complete misinformation in order to have History seem to fit your jaundiced views you are doing a disserise to young people reading such missinformation when your duty as a member of a Germanic community is to present facts correctly.





    "
    It Might be better, to say Boudiccia, was a really good politician, or then again maybe she just had fertile ground to lay seeds of revolt, because the Romans were a bunch of oppressive Bastards and her audience including herself, weren’t able to see the final end. "

    And the other (male) Celtic leaders did?
    Male celtic leaders invited Horsa and Hengis to help them out with fights they were having with other disorganized Celtic tribes. That was a brilliant Idea, ay, "Lets bring the Saxons in to help us, with lots of men and Weapons!"
    I am sure that idea was thought out to the end...




    Actually I think the lesson to be learned is that Morality, and convictions don’t win wars. Weapons, Strategy, Discipline and Fire Power, Do.

    Another lesson is what happens when Citizens, Amateurs/Barbarians attempt to fight Real Armies, with nothing but a bit of pent up rage, and a few thousand Lunatics.
    I covered this already

    One, thought on the Mythical, Amazon Goddess Warrior, is that she is for the most part simply a Masturbation target for men with low self esteem.

    So you are basically saying that the irish people as a race are masochistic then? After all, Cu Chulain was thought how to fight by the great chieftain Scaghtchah who happened to be a woman, we also have The Morrigan the banshees and numerous irish mythological personages and Goddesses that are central to the irish national myths.


    The stuff you write below is just bizzarre non- sequitors and frankly contribute nothing.
    This image is the same type of sick sex fantasy, you see involved in BSMD, Whips, Chains and Pain.

    These types of men, didn’t just come about in Modern Times, and for the most part, they are generally men in positions of power with how should I say “ Issues”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric View Post
    I agree with you that the ability to build up muscle is not all that matters. And that's precisely why we shouldn't routinely send our women to war for biological reasons.

    Consider WWI. Almost an entire generation of young men in England and Germany and probably France as well was slaughtered in that war, leaving a major demographic gap in their home societies.

    Now imagine if we had also lost an entire generation of young women. Viviparous populations (like ours) can recover pretty well from missing males, since there is not nearly as much variability due to age in the male's reproductive capacity. Missing youthful females (the kind who could fight in war), on the other hand, represent a threat to the continued viability of the population. This is why, in the United States at least, it is illegal to kill does during the deer hunt — only bucks may legally be taken.

    Incidentally, this is also why we traditionally treat women with greater deference and courtesy — we only need a few good, healthy men to serve our population, but we need a large stock of good, healthy women — if we treat women poorly, they may not be as fit to carry forward our culture.

    Anyway, if we lose all the men between 19 and 29 in a major war (that age range is not hyperbole — Mozambique, which has had a long and brutal civil war, has lost an even larger age range of its men), then the older men could fill the gap and birth rates could be, perhaps, maintained. But if we also lose all our women between 19 and 29, then our birth rates would drop significantly, leaving us weaker the next time we must go to war.

    In the event of foreign wars, like WWI was for England and Germany, I don't think women should ever be sent into combat en masse — perhaps a few elite troops here and there or spies to go behind enemy lines, but as a percentage of the total fighting force, they should be very very few. Only in the event of invasion should women be called upon to fight, and then only if it is deemed that the outcome of a successful invasion would be roughly equivalent to the destruction of the people (either physically, culturally, or psychologically).
    Very Useful, particularly since as technology progresses Armies abilities to kill more people faster increased. as you showed in your WK1 and WK2 examples.

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