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Thread: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China - New Evidence of Ancient European Migration to the Orient

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    OK. I see our split. Your focus seems to be on technical division in extant race classification, mine on the politically extended definition of Aryan.

    I have no problem jumping between IE mythology, IE language, IE tribes and modern generic "whites" and calling them all 'Aryan' in their respective spheres.

    You'll note that I used the term 'referent' and applied it to the Nordic sub-group - implying an idealized form which even that sub-group does not fully meet. One of the few things that WN's have broad agreement on is 'some kind of' eugenics. So Aryan is not just a present 'race' but a future one - idealized in form, beauty and intelligence-, which as you know, inspires stammering fear.

    Many efforts, of course, have put forward a more techinical description of 'Aryan' race ranging from strict Germanicism to more inclusive genetic distance measurements (pick a referent).

    It may be presumptuous on my part, but I suspect AryanDawn would prefer the latter method should we ever try to enumerate.

    Oh, BTW, Bangans. IE-speaking people central north India. A piece on their language:

    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehoo...ani.abbi2.html

    Last edited by OnionPeeler; Wednesday, July 31st, 2002 at 05:34 AM.

  2. #12
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    Originally posted by Triad
    Oh, BTW, Bangans. IE-speaking people central north India. A piece on their language:
    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehoo...ani.abbi2.html
    Well, this is quite an interesting addition to my collection, thank You!

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    Bangan clans are just about 60 Kms from the place where I live.

    I have been close to that place but could never make it there into those villages. I know a Bangan, whom I was helping when he was staying in my city. I felt a strong sense of tie with his mannerisms. Its still a living Aryan culture, but its facing extinction. I hope to do some recce to know about these people who live in the Greater Himalayas, on the border of Utteranchal and Himachal.

    I have heard from my close friends of a Village called Sartoli and another Haryal(incidentally the very name of my grandmother's village in north west frontier India).

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    Post Re: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China

    Sick, overblowns who believe Iranians to be the source of all that is good and true. Get a grip. China had given it's influences to the West, through Aryana. I am not either ethnicity, just know what I am talking about.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, May 26th, 2004 at 05:38 PM. Reason: removed obscenities

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    Post See pasted

    From: Bobo Huang
    Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:19:50 -0600
    To:


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    This message was sent from: Chinese Culture Forum at Asiawind.
    <http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read....2&i=4114&t=305>
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I think all these arguments on (Han) Chinese origin are avoidable.
    Historical records, including ethnic demographic history, are likely to be
    some times imprecise and inconclusive. This leads to much controversy and
    speculations. Paleoanthropology offers some insight and genealogy can
    contribute. But, as genetics and paleo-genetics can provide more accurate
    answers, these should be the main focus. This is not to negate others as
    mentioned. They are still relevant to compliment the genetic analysis.
    For example, in appearance or morphologically, most of the Brazillians
    don’t
    look like the Native American (Indian). Genetic analysis reveals something
    quite different. The indigenous mitrochrondial DNA (female lineage)
    contribution to the Brazillian population varies from 11% to 59%. Even in
    some of the upper echelon of the supposedly more homogenous Whites, it
    reaches as high as 33%. (Ref.1). A corollary study with DNA from the Y
    chromosome (male lineage) of Columbian Mestizos pointed to a figure of
    about
    2 %.(Ref 2) This means historically it was mainly the European and to a
    much
    smaller extent African males who mated with the indigenous women to produce

    the current Brazillian population. It strongly indicated that, in
    consistent
    with history, large numbers of the indigenous males were enslaved and
    worked
    to death/killed. And the excess native women were taken advantage by the
    predominantly male European immigrants/invaders. It was also possible that
    the native women preferred male European for survival reasons. This
    contradicts the current academic apology that depopulation of the natives
    was the result of diseases or lack of immunity to introduced diseases.
    Diseases do not discriminate (whether you are male or female).

    This aside, there are now enough genetic studies to answer this question
    about (Han) Chinese origin. Perhaps, if all the Chinese ethnic groups are
    to
    be considered, more comprehensive and representative data are needed.
    However, over the past few years, the Chinese genome project set up by
    Stanford University and several Chinese Universities (Fudan University,
    etc.) has done enough research to yield some results. (Ref 3)
    Basically, genetic studies on Chinese, inclusive of many main ethnic
    groups,
    conclude that there are no European/Caucasoid genes in the Han Chinese. It
    is easier and more definite to disprove substantial Caucasoid genetic
    component in all Han Chinese. Also if there is any truth that there is
    Caucasoid origin to Chinese, then significant amount of Caucasoid
    mitochrondia DNA (female line) and Y chromosomal DNA (male line) has to be
    present in all the Han Chinese. Even in the Uyghurs, the population only
    possesses about 25 % identifiable Central Asian (more Turkish, not exactly
    European) genetic markers.( Ref 3). The rest of their genetic markers are
    more related to Northern Chinese/East Asian. This demonstrates that it is
    more plausible to make a case that there were migrations outward from
    central/north China rather than Central Asian infusion.(Ref 4,5)

    In reality, the analysis of the genetic component of the Han and its mainly

    Asian minorities is more complex. This is because genetically, the Asian
    minorities (eg Tibetan) are more related to the Han than the Caucasian or
    other minorities (eg.Kazaks) that have significant amount of Central Asian
    genes. To track down the more closely related ethnic groups, more samples
    (larger number of people from each group) and genetic markers have to be
    analysed to reveal the minor differences. This is simply because it is
    harder to differentiate individuals who are more alike genetically.
    Besides,
    interbreeding over the years further compromised the differences and so
    complicated the picture. (Ref 4,5)

    The following references used for this posting are available from website
    like www.genetics.org Reasonable knowledge in genetics is required to read

    and understand them.

    Ref 1. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 67:444-461, 2000
    The Ancestry of Brazilian mtDNA Lineages
    Juliana Alves-Silva,1 Magda da Silva Santos,1 Pedro E. M. Guimarães,1
    Alessandro C. S. Ferreira,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,2 Sérgio D. J. Pena,1 and
    Vania Ferreira Prado1
    1Departamento de Bioquímica e Imunologia, Universidade Federal de Minas
    Gerais, Belo Horizonte-MG, Brazil; and 2 Fachbereich Mathematik,
    Universität
    Hamburg, Hamburg

    Ref 2. Strong Amerind/white sex bias and a possible Sephardic contribution
    among the founders of a population in northwest Colombia.
    Carvajal-Carmona LG, Soto ID, Pineda N, Ortiz-Barrientos D, Duque C,
    Ospina-Duque J, McCarthy M, Montoya P, Alvarez VM, Bedoya G, Ruiz-Linares
    A.
    Laboratorio de Genetica Molecular, Universidad de Antioquia, Medellin,
    Colombia.


    Ref 3. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
    Vol. 95, pp. 11501–11503, September 1998
    Commentary
    The Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project
    L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
    Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford,
    CA
    94305

    Ref 4. Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans
    into
    Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age
    Bing Su,1 Junhua Xiao,2 Peter Underhill,5 Ranjan Deka,7 Weiling Zhang,2
    Joshua Akey,1
    Wei Huang,3,4 Di Shen,1 Daru Lu,2 Jingchun Luo,2 Jiayou Chu,8 Jiazhen Tan,2

    Peidong Shen,5
    Ron Davis,5,6 Luca Cavalli-Sforza,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,1 Momiao Xiong,1
    Ruofu Du,9
    Peter Oefner,5,6 Zhu Chen,3,4 and Li Jin1,2,3
    1Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston; 2Morgan-Tan
    International Center for Life Sciences and Institute of Genetics,
    Fudan University, 3National Human Genome Center at Shanghai, and 4Rui-Jin
    Hospital, Shanghai Second Medical University, Shanghai;
    5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, and 6Stanford DNA Sequencing
    and Technology Center, Palo Alto; 7Department of
    Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati; 8Institute of
    Medical Biology, The Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences,
    Kunming, Yunnan, China; and 9Institute of Genetics, The Chinese Academy of
    Sciences, Beijing


    Ref 5. Genetic Structure of the Chinese Populations
    1,2Lin He, 1,2YongYong Shi, 1,2XinZhi Zhao, 1,2Lan Yu, 1,2Ran Tao,
    1,2JunXia
    Tang, 1,2Changshun Zhang, 1,2Bo Gao, 1,2Gang Chen, 1,2GuoYin Feng,
    1,2YuJuan
    La
    1Bio-X Life Science Research Center, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, 1954
    Hua
    Shan Road, Shanghai 200030, China, 2Shanghai Research Center of Life
    Sciences, 320 Yue Yang Road, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai 200031,
    China

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    Post Re: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China

    There is no trace of 'White men' whatsoever in ancient China. The territory of Xinjiang, i.e., New Dominion Province, is a disputable area. Sima Qian could be wrong in assuming that Yuezhi people had lived around Dunhuang-Qilian. The mummies the Nordic dicks are talking about were found near Turpan or Urumqi.

    In history, true, Ran Min had killed 200,000 Jiehu for their high nose bridge in 3-4th century time frame. Jiehu was merely one branch of the Huns, but the rest of Huns were just like us Chinese. That's why history said Jiehu was sorted out by high nose bridge. High nose bridge was not equal to White men. You had seen Indians, Pakistani, and Afghanistani. They all have high nose bridge, but they are not White men. People in Xinjiang, Afghanistan and Pakistan have relatively darker skin, the same way as Tibetans: Because they live on higher grounds, and because they live next to the desert. Similarly, hairy skin was not equal to White men. I had pasted a picture of the Ainu on my website at http://www.uglychinese.org/japanese.htm Once you see who the Ainu are, you understand what I mean.

    I had a discourse on Tanguts, Qiangs [Tibetans], and today's Yi-zu minority. There were extrapolations about them. Epics claimed they pasted red color onto dark face. Should they have high nose bridge, that's because they, either relatives or ancestors of Tibetans, had historically lived in between Chinese and Xinjiang [New Dominion Province].

    In the following, I will paste some of my studies

    Rong's Possible Link To Qiangic People

    Shallow-minded and opportunist Chinese, who never hesitated to be a traitor since the Opium War of 1839-42, had speculated a purported link to non-Mongoloid on basis of incomplete analysis of Linzi DNA on the tomb remains of people living in Shandong Peninsula 2500-3000 years ago. Such racial demeaning approach led to claims that ancient Rong-di people were non-Mongoloid or that ancient Chang-di barbarian & Zhongshan-guo people were non-Mongoloid. A thorough perusal of ancient history only leads to one conclusion, i.e., ancient Rong-di people and their offsprings were ancestors of today's Tibetans. http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/cont...stract/20/2/214 carried an article about the new research paper by Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, claiming that "The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool". (Prof Wei Chu-Hsien, in China & America, had research into 'bat cave' drawings on Taiwan Island and concluded that ancient Taiwan aboriginals had migrated there from coastal China.)

    http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#White-yi

    Emperor Fu Jian of Anterior Qin Dynasty (AD 351-394) called the Xianbei rebels 'Bai Lu', namely, "light"-skinned enemies [as commonly perceived]. Historians, including Cai Dongfan, speculated that Xianbei, whose ancestors fled to Manchuria under the Hunnic attack, MIGHT have possessed lighter skin; and a Japanese historian, who compiled China's 25 chronicles into commonly-readable series, had also pointed out that Jinn Dynasty wealthy in northern China liked to buy Xianbei women as concubines for the height. Having interpreted "Huangxu-nu of Xianbei" as "yellow-haired slave of the Xianbei nomads", I would conclude that <b>Xianbei 'Bai Lu' could merely mean white-colored clothing people by adopting Scholar Wang Zhonghan's linkage of ancient Bai-yi [White Yi] subgroup of Dong-yi [Eastern Yi] barbarians</a> to the tribal custom of wearing white-colored clothes.</b> In deed, today's Koreans, i.e., kinsmen of the Tungunzic Dong Hu, still had a tradition of wearing white robe.

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    Post Re: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China

    Shallow-minded and opportunist Chinese, who never hesitated to be a traitor since the Opium War of 1839-42, had speculated a purported link to non-Mongoloid on basis of incomplete analysis of Linzi DNA on the tomb remains of people living in Shandong Peninsula 2500-3000 years ago.
    This wording alone is very enlightening. How significant the Indoeuropean influence might have been is difficult to say, but to deny the fact that contacts and a certain cultural impact existed is absurd.

    Again, even if it would be about the horse and certain tactics alone, its almost absolutely sure that IE domesticated and invented these techniques.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
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    Post Re: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China

    The Chinese authorities haven't been trying to dissolve this part of history for nothing...

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    Post Re: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...970820.web.pdf

    You guys will now get genetical confirmation that Ainu have nothing to do with White men.

    Aside from your absurd claim of Caucasoid origin or bearing for Chinese civilization, there was also the other absurd claim of Negroid origin. Both absurdities, in fact, shared the same roots of fallacies:



    Prof Wei Chu-hsien did commit a fatal mistake in extrapolating on the tin decipher for the city of Wuxi ["no tin"] and polarized the Xia-Shang dynastic substitution as a fight between Mongoloid [Negroid to be in Wei's apparently blown-away alternative writing] and Caucasoid, i.e., a fallacy that scholar Luo Xianglin opposed. Do note that Wei was a student of Wang Guowei who fallaciously proposed the notion of linking 'Hua' to the Avars and 'Xia' to the Tu-huo-luo kingdom in Central Asia. Should Wei have adopted 'black fish' of the Yangtze Deta as the god of "dark-skinned" Shang people who moved to the Yellow River with the tin from Wuxi hill, then how could he reconcile the ancient claim that the father of Yu, i.e., Gun of Xia people, was named 'black fish'? Scholar Luo Xianglin pointed out that Frenchman Terrien Lacouperie was the first to propose the fallacious claim of Babylon as the "Western Origin Of The Early Chinese Civilization" in 1894. Wang Guowei just conveniently appropriated the Frenchman's absurd idea, and his student Wei Juxian carried it on. Ultimately, you, Clyde Winters, picked it up by treating it as a dog chew.

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    Post Re: Aryans: Culture Bearers to China

    Quote Originally Posted by ahxiang
    You guys will now get genetical confirmation that Ainu have nothing to do with White men.
    Ahxiang, the Ainuids certainly share a common origin with the western Eurasians, and this is backed up by the genetics. Nobody has said the Ainu are modern Europeans, or that native Bronze Age Chinese were Caucasoid.

    And nobody has suggested that Chinese civilisation was founded by Caucasoids, but that a Central Asian influence in the Bronze Age of China was important to Chinese culture, and that such a migration led to Xia state formation, either by conquest or by forcing a response to their raids.

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