Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Classification help: Nordics versus northern Upper Paleolithics/Cro-Magnons

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Gegenschlag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 05:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Swiss-German
    Subrace
    Mostly Hallstatt, some UP
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    to every man a woman of his race
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    102
    Thanked in
    75 Posts

    Classification help: Nordics versus northern Upper Paleolithics/Cro-Magnons

    Top- predominantly Nordic.
    Bottom- predominantly northern Upper Paleolithic/ Northern Cro-Magnon.

    When classifying a Germanic/North European, it is often useful to compare to these first.

    Compare enough pictures of the person, until you are satisfied that you are seeing a real morphological similarity, and if the subject is more like above than below, then he cannot be pred. UP and vice versa.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	COMPOSITE.JPG 
Views:	91 
Size:	237.9 KB 
ID:	115776

    Feel free to post your own composites.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Gegenschlag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 05:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Swiss-German
    Subrace
    Mostly Hallstatt, some UP
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    to every man a woman of his race
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    102
    Thanked in
    75 Posts
    A few months after I still look upon the above composite with pride. I can stand by the examples and it has been useful for a number of classifications.

    Here is a composite of Northern Upper Paleolithic (UP) or Cromagnon women with 8 examples all predominantly UP. I posted one before in another thread but have found some inconsistencies.

    This one will hopefully survive the test of time and more classifications.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GHFHFGHGF.JPG 
Views:	44 
Size:	289.0 KB 
ID:	115916

    I threw Sakkari in there for reference despite her not being Northern. She is similar enough to Larter and helps provide a context.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Gegenschlag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 05:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Swiss-German
    Subrace
    Mostly Hallstatt, some UP
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    to every man a woman of his race
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    102
    Thanked in
    75 Posts
    I have been testing the above composite and the examples are holding out well.

    Something that I have noticed is that some Phalian women stand out a bit and, while they don't look like Med or Nordic women, they don't resemble other UP women too strongly either.

    It may very well be the case that Phalian women are easier to compare to their male counterparts than to women of similar or related types.

    For example,

    Franka Potente and Arnold Schwarzenegger- both predominantly Phalian. Similar eyes, mouth area, chin and nose.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	potente-arnie.jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	39.4 KB 
ID:	115950


    Claudia Schiffer and Til Schweiger- both predominantly Phalian. Similar shape of the upper lip, nasal tip, cheeks and gonial angles.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dfsdfsdfs.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	91.5 KB 
ID:	115951


    My definition of Phalian is different from the SNPA's. While the SNPA views them as a sort of transition between Borreby and Nordic, I view them as unreduced UP types that have been "northernized" by some process. They may be to Alpines what Nordics are to Meds. Basically, the Germanic counterpart of the Bruenn type in the British Isles. This is more in line with Guenther's original definition.

  4. #4
    Active Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Status
    Prolonged Absence
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    4,167
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    10,674
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    491
    Thanked in
    432 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Gegenschlag View Post
    I have been testing the above composite and the examples are holding out well.

    Something that I have noticed is that some Phalian women stand out a bit and, while they don't look like Med or Nordic women, they don't resemble other UP women too strongly either.

    It may very well be the case that Phalian women are easier to compare to their male counterparts than to women of similar or related types.

    For example,

    Franka Potente and Arnold Schwarzenegger- both predominantly Phalian. Similar eyes, mouth area, chin and nose.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	potente-arnie.jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	39.4 KB 
ID:	115950


    Claudia Schiffer and Til Schweiger- both predominantly Phalian. Similar shape of the upper lip, nasal tip, cheeks and gonial angles.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dfsdfsdfs.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	91.5 KB 
ID:	115951


    My definition of Phalian is different from the SNPA's. While the SNPA views them as a sort of transition between Borreby and Nordic, I view them as unreduced UP types that have been "northernized" by some process. They may be to Alpines what Nordics are to Meds. Basically, the Germanic counterpart of the Bruenn type in the British Isles. This is more in line with Guenther's original definition.
    I would not say Til Schweiger looks pure Phalian, as his features are really somewhat Hallstatt (look at his eye sockets or brows for proof) and finer than Claudia Schiffer's, but just noticed his daughter Luna definitely seems more like the blockhead phenotype and the two women seem to share the same cheekbones.

    I have to put forth my own observation, that Borreby is possibly a transition between Phalian and East Baltic. My grandfather's obituary photo was classed Borreby 15 years ago and when I look in the mirror, I see both Phalian and East Baltic traits, but when I look at Borreby, it has both traits too, except none of the popularly supplied Danish or German Borreby examples from the various websites or webpages look similar to me. Norwegian Borreby examples, I suppose the Jaeren subtype, definitely look similar to me and my sons, but the Fehmarn don't and it's weird because one would expect a type to be similar all around. It seems like the Norwegian examples are more dolicephalic than the Danish ones, but when looking at Borreby generally, it seems more brachycephalic (skulls too low) than either Phalian or East Baltic, but there are otherwise similarities between all three.

    Feeling my cheekbones, jaw and knowing most hats won't fit me (YourDNAPortal also says I have a certain gene that makes my head larger than average), I think my head is shaped like Viggo Mortensen (my 'Borreby' grandfather had the same chin, but we share the deep eye sockets/brows and nose), Mads Mikkelsen (he looks like me when I was in primary school) and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (he's got my jaw and hairline), so both brachycephalic and dolicephalic, or as they call mesocephalic, correct? I'm surprised that these men with obvious Danish blood are not considered poster-boys for Borreby, if Borreby is representative of Danes, because I cannot picture them as any other ethnicity. When I asked a Swedish ginger, in real life, what she thought my background was by looking at me and she said British Isles, but my face and skull are shaped like those men (not Colm Meaney or Martin McGuinness, etc) and I'm not rufous except my facial hair, as they and I have the same type of sandy blonde/golden brown tones and waves.



    Look also at Kim Bendix Petersen, aka King Diamond, for exactly what I mean. He looks like me when I keep my moustache but shave off my beard and let my hair grow out, lol. These Danes are no different than the Danelaw folk of England!



    England = 25% Keltic Nordic (derived from pre-Roman invaders), 15% Anglo-Saxon (post-Roman Germanic invaders, most common in the southeast, especially East Anglia), 15% Brünn {indigenous Paleolithic inhabitants}, 15% North-Atlantid and 10% Palaeo-Atlantid (blend of Mesolithic Atlanto-Mediterranean invaders with both earlier and later arrivals; most common in the Midlands and northwest), 8% Hallstatt Nordic (of Viking and Norman derivation), 5% Trønder (of Norwegian Viking derivation; most common in the northeast), 3% Borreby and 2% Fälish (both of Viking and Norman derivation; associated with the landed gentry; source of the "John Bull" type), 2% Noric (from Bronze-Age invaders) = 100% Nordish (73% central and 27% periphery types)
    There is no sense completely conflating British Isles UP with Bruenn and Bruenn=Celt, at least not for 1.500 years, as you know...

    1.) Anglo-Saxon or Old Germanic Reihengräber type (Nordic-Brünn blend; predominant element in the Dutch province of Friesland (Frisia) and the Dutch and German Frisian Islands, common in southeast England and northwest Germany)
    I know the archaeological assumptions of McCulloch are a jumbled mess, but do those ideas about phenotypes make any sense, or is it all hogwash?

    http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html

    Is the arrangement better or worse than SNPA?

    https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-intro.htm

    I'm confused, because this Baltic Troender looks like the Danish men above, who've never been classified as Troender, yet he seems somewhat Borreby in the eyes.

    Example from The Races of Europe (Carleton S. Coon 1939):


    (Kurland, Latvia; Blend of
    Corded and local Cro-Magnid,
    the latter represented by
    West-Baltid/East-Cro-Magnid)


    Things like this make it hard for me to classify myself. If competing interpretations from 'experts' cannot even agree, how is it anybody else can? What are your preferred phenotype sources online?
    full stop

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Gegenschlag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 05:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Swiss-German
    Subrace
    Mostly Hallstatt, some UP
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    to every man a woman of his race
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    102
    Thanked in
    75 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    I would not say Til Schweiger looks pure Phalian, as his features are really somewhat Hallstatt (look at his eye sockets or brows for proof) and finer than Claudia Schiffer's, but just noticed his daughter Luna definitely seems more like the blockhead phenotype and the two women seem to share the same cheekbones.

    I see what you mean about Schweiger. His features, specially the eyes, look very "Germanic" or "Hallstattized" if you prefer. This could be a result of mixture or simply convergent evolution between Phalians and Hallstatts. An explanation I hold likely is that some Phalians and Hallstatts have undergone similar adaptions from a different base, a "Germanization" process for lack of abetter word.

    I have to put forth my own observation, that Borreby is possibly a transition between Phalian and East Baltic. My grandfather's obituary photo was classed Borreby 15 years ago and when I look in the mirror, I see both Phalian and East Baltic traits, but when I look at Borreby, it has both traits too, except none of the popularly supplied Danish or German Borreby examples from the various websites or webpages look similar to me. Norwegian Borreby examples, I suppose the Jaeren subtype, definitely look similar to me and my sons, but the Fehmarn don't and it's weird because one would expect a type to be similar all around. It seems like the Norwegian examples are more dolicephalic than the Danish ones, but when looking at Borreby generally, it seems more brachycephalic (skulls too low) than either Phalian or East Baltic, but there are otherwise similarities between all three.
    There was recently a thread about Damon and Magnus Carlsen. Both of them were predominantly UP, but only Carlsen looks like a typical round faced Borreby while Damon is more easy to mistake for a Nordic. He looks more like a gracile Oliver Kahn. The point is that UPs can vary quite a bit.

    Feeling my cheekbones, jaw and knowing most hats won't fit me (YourDNAPortal also says I have a certain gene that makes my head larger than average), I think my head is shaped like Viggo Mortensen (my 'Borreby' grandfather had the same chin, but we share the deep eye sockets/brows and nose), Mads Mikkelsen (he looks like me when I was in primary school) and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (he's got my jaw and hairline), so both brachycephalic and dolicephalic, or as they call mesocephalic, correct? I'm surprised that these men with obvious Danish blood are not considered poster-boys for Borreby, if Borreby is representative of Danes, because I cannot picture them as any other ethnicity. When I asked a Swedish ginger, in real life, what she thought my background was by looking at me and she said British Isles, but my face and skull are shaped like those men (not Colm Meaney or Martin McGuinness, etc) and I'm not rufous except my facial hair, as they and I have the same type of sandy blonde/golden brown tones and waves.
    Mesocephalic is neither dolico nor branchy like grey is neither black nor white. It lays somewhere in between.

    Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is predominantly Nordic, but he looks a bit like Schweiger in the cheeks and jaw area (Phalian admixture). His nasal aparatus makes it nonethelss clear that Nordic is dominating.

    So he is not Borreby but rather Hallstatt Nordic (around 70-80%) + Phalian (around 30-20%) = hardcore Germanic.

    Concerning Danes as a whole, I think that the stereotype of Danes being mostly Borreby is largely false. Sure, there are proportionally more Borreby in Denmark than elsewhere in Scandinavia, but we are talking of a difference in degree not kind.

    Walking in Copenhagen does not feel too different from Gothenburg or Stockholm, except there are less migrants. For every "typical Borreby" you will see more Nordid hybrids, Phalians and just plain Germanic looking people that might be from anywhere from Hannover to Östersund. Litterature (McCulloch, even Coon and Lundman) exaggerates small differences. Individual variation matters more in practice.

    So I would take those percentages from the racial compact with a big grain of salt. I would even take Coon's and Lundman's maps with a grain of salt.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Gegenschlag For This Useful Post:


  7. #6
    Active Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Status
    Prolonged Absence
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    4,167
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    10,674
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    491
    Thanked in
    432 Posts
    Damon and Carlsen together, give off a Nordeby vibe? I don't think it's an age difference with me being between them that way, because they both seem pretty baby-faced. Other than that, besides how I don't any have neoteny, I can see similarities between them and myself, so maybe I'm in between them and the Danes I provided.

    There are clear outlines of different features to my face (Nord?), but they are more rugged and not so angular (UP?). Due to my Nordic Bronze Age DNA found in Battle-Ax graves, I'm tempted to write Cordeby. I'm not convinced that leptomorphic is the natural state of Germanic tribes, because we would have lived a rough life on horseback outdoors across the Steppe before becoming a distinct metaethnicity and Tacitus noted our large limbs, whereas the sedentary agriculturalists of the Mediterranean had a 'civilised' urban undoor lifestyle and would have been emaciated from a grain diet without dairy.
    full stop

  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Gegenschlag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 05:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Swiss-German
    Subrace
    Mostly Hallstatt, some UP
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    to every man a woman of his race
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    102
    Thanked in
    75 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    Damon and Carlsen together, give off a Nordeby vibe? I don't think it's an age difference with me being between them that way, because they both seem pretty baby-faced. Other than that, besides how I don't any have neoteny, I can see similarities between them and myself, so maybe I'm in between them and the Danes I provided.

    There are clear outlines of different features to my face (Nord?), but they are more rugged and not so angular (UP?). Due to my Nordic Bronze Age DNA found in Battle-Ax graves, I'm tempted to write Cordeby. I'm not convinced that leptomorphic is the natural state of Germanic tribes, because we would have lived a rough life on horseback outdoors across the Steppe before becoming a distinct metaethnicity and Tacitus noted our large limbs, whereas the sedentary agriculturalists of the Mediterranean had a 'civilised' urban undoor lifestyle and would have been emaciated from a grain diet without dairy.
    It´s hard to classify based words only (clear outlines, angular, etc.)

    What I normally do is I try to find as many pictures as I can of a person and of the best possible quality. Afterwards, I compare the morphology of these pictures carefully to that of people I have already classified and am more or less sure of.

    So, for example, if I was to classify Til Schweiger, and knowing he is an ethnic German and rather Northern looking, I would put him against these examples of Nordic and UP.





    I would look closely for a while and compare the shape of the nose, chin, eyes, forehead and other facial features to the examples above.

    If I did that, I would see that he is closest to the man on the bottom left (Otto Goetz), and has some similarity to the Swedish guy right to him. He has a similar facial shape to Goetz, and a similar nose to the Swede. Does he look like any of the men above, Toni Kroos, Edward Fox, etc? Not really.

    Therefore, a Phalian classification is possible. I would then try to corroborate looking at more pictures and comparing them too. Also watching videos is an option. The key is ultimately to get to the core of his appearance, which is in the facial morphology, and making certain that he is most similar to people of the taxon I intend to classify him as.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Gegenschlag For This Useful Post:


  10. #8
    Active Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Status
    Prolonged Absence
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    4,167
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    10,674
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    491
    Thanked in
    432 Posts
    Classification of my grandfather as Borreby was done with only one picture, but the five men I would say he looked like most were Tom Wilkinson, Edward and James Fox, Ronny Cox and George Peppard. Do any of them look Borreby, or what would you prefer them typed as? The bones in my face are shaped like Oliver Kahn and Goetz Otto, so what phenotype do you think they belong to?
    full stop

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Rodskarl Dubhgall For This Useful Post:


  12. #9
    Senior Member
    Gegenschlag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 05:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Swiss-German
    Subrace
    Mostly Hallstatt, some UP
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    to every man a woman of his race
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    102
    Thanked in
    75 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    Classification of my grandfather as Borreby was done with only one picture, but the five men I would say he looked like most were Tom Wilkinson, Edward and James Fox, Ronny Cox and George Peppard.
    I can't make heads or tails of that as Wilkinson looks pred Bruenn with perhaps some Keltic Nordic. The Foxes, on the other hand, look pred Nordic. Somewhere between Corded and Hallstatt.

    Do any of them look Borreby, or what would you prefer them typed as? The bones in my face are shaped like Oliver Kahn and Goetz Otto, so what phenotype do you think they belong to?
    If that is the case then you would be pred Phalian, or a Bruenn variety that approaches Phalian. I can't really classify anyone without pictures, though. The most I can do in such case is to diagnose famous people who you think are very similar to you.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Gegenschlag For This Useful Post:


  14. #10
    Active Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Status
    Prolonged Absence
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    4,167
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    10,674
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    491
    Thanked in
    432 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Gegenschlag View Post
    I can't make heads or tails of that as Wilkinson looks pred Bruenn with perhaps some Keltic Nordic. The Foxes, on the other hand, look pred Nordic. Somewhere between Corded and Hallstatt.

    If that is the case then you would be pred Phalian, or a Bruenn variety that approaches Phalian. I can't really classify anyone without pictures, though. The most I can do in such case is to diagnose famous people who you think are very similar to you.
    To comment on Cox, he's been called East Nordic. Peppard has been called Anglo-Saxon. There's just something about all these men together, but perhaps Edward Fox the furthest and brother James a step closer than him to my grandfather, so they're both not as close as the other three.

    https://the-races-of-the-world.fandom.com/wiki/Borreby

    All right, that site seems to have solved my curiosity. Pilou Asbæk is very similar to me; rather than just looking at some features from many individuals, here's only one person who fits, along with Carlsen.

    That blonde next to Adele is probably the closest of any phenotype example I've seen anywhere online to my wife and mother-in-law. My mother-in-law is almost as tall as I am and she definitely doesn't look Irish, but English and maybe German (from her own father's side).

    Yeah, I've stopped looking now. I'm Borreby like I originally thought, but had a harder time figuring my wife until seeing the two, both male and female, in the same group, matching so well. When having lost weight, my bones stick out more and seem Phalian, but we're both endomorphic and so, I think whatever is Nordic generally tends to be 'buried'.
    full stop

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Rodskarl Dubhgall For This Useful Post:


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Nordics and the Upper Palaeolithic Survivors
    By Hagalaz in forum Europoid
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 15 Hours Ago, 07:11 PM
  2. Whats the Difference Between Cro-magnons and Cro-magnids?
    By steinunn in forum Anthropological Taxonomy
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Sunday, July 31st, 2011, 02:47 PM
  3. Russian Cro-Magnons
    By Marcus in forum Cromagnid
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Thursday, August 19th, 2010, 07:51 AM
  4. Cro-Magnons Conquered Europe, but Left Neanderthals Alone
    By Agrippa in forum Paleoanthropology
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Friday, May 12th, 2006, 05:29 PM
  5. The Culture of the Cro-Magnons
    By Johannes de León in forum Cultural & Linguistic Anthropology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Friday, July 1st, 2005, 10:57 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •