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Thread: Thread split: "Anglosaxonism", should Hannover join the U.K.?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Of course. And if you want to divide Germany in several smaller pieces as a foreigner, you're not doing it out of charity, least of all the person who advocates this policy once more - matters of ethnicity matter less to him than questions of ideology and religion in this regard. It certainly weakens all the Germans.
    Perhaps in a different time, when European states were constantly at war with each other, a divided Germany would be intrinsically anti-German. But under the modern circumstances, I'm not so sure. For instance, if the old East-Germany would continue as a separate state, they likely would be much less inflicted with mass-immigration, considering the much higher Nationalist sentiments there. The same goes for Bavaria, I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    I would argue against that. But if it's true, then maby Norway should never have filed for divorce from Eastern Scandinavians, the Swedes? Sweden and Norway didn't become stronger afterwards either. But I bet Norwegians' destiny was already pretty distinct by the time of the separation, otherwise, why do it at all? And not because of foreign pressure either.

    Don't forget all Germans share a common language too, unlike Scandinavians.

    But is there a Scandinavian nation? If so, a disunited Scandinavia is an anti-Scandinavian cause - all the more so from a geopolitical perspective.
    Scandinavia doesn't have a standard language as the German-speakers have in Hochdeutsch. But to me, there seems to be just as great differences between the different German dialects as there is between the Scandinavian languages/dialects. I imagine a Plattdeutsch-speaker have just as much trouble understanding a Bavarian-speaker, as a Dane has trouble understanding a Northern Swede.

    I would say there is a Scandinavian nation, although there also exists a Norwegian, Swedish and Danish nation. Hence why the different unions were called 'Denmark-Norway' and 'Sweden-Norway', and not just 'Denmark' and 'Sweden'. We have intermingled and evolved together since time immemorial, and still have a sense of common destiny. We more or less follow in each others' footsteps on almost all matters, small and large. Always looking what the other countries are doing, when deciding what we should do ourselves. Our countries also cooperate quite closely together, making travel, work, healthcare and residency across the borders very painless, regardless of any membership in the EU.

    The essence of nationhood could be explored more in depth, but to put it shortly, I don't think there's any larger differences between the different Scandinavian countries, be it socially, economically, politically, culturally or genetically, than there is within the German state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Thanks to Bismarck! Germans didn't necessarily stick together prior to him, that's why for instance Napoleon snowballed through the German states.
    Ethnic blocks usually stick together in times of perceived threats from other ethnic blocks. I don't think there was anything coincidental about it.
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    I would have preferred Zollern Prussia dominate a union with Poland separately, with Hannover and Saxony in a double monarchy in Union with England instead of Scotland and Ireland (India never being an issue in this scenario), Nassau and Schleswig-Holstein belonging to the Netherlands (Benelux minus Wallonia) and Denmark. As for Bavaria and Austria, they should have had the Sudetenland and Tyrol and a double monarchy too, likewise for Württemberg and Liechtenstein a twosome, with all the German cantons of Switzerland.
    An absurd fantasy. Absolutely I trivialise your "Anglosaxonism", it is trivial - and exists only in your posts. No German would sign up for that. The Dutch have tons of Saxon blood too, and the Flemings as well, you know.

    I say as one who preferred Allied victories, that there should have been coexistent West Germanic spheres of influence, respected by both our side and the Axis.
    With a border marking the Anglo sphere of influence running right through the heartland of Germany, lulz.

    Bismarck alienated pro-German kingdoms who weren't consulted during 'Unification".
    An acceptable price. Bismarck achieved almost complete success. And why should the Germans count on the British Empire for protection and allow their meddling?

    I support the peaceful exchange of real estate for the restoration of pre-Carolingian/Ottonian nation-states inside the Germanic metaethnic framework.
    I support you not deciding the fate of Germans.

    It seems Prussian East Germany is as dead as East Germanic identity, but at least North Germanics can and should be dutifully respected per their own sovereignties.
    At least you respect the sovereignity of Scandinavians - they'll be happy to hear it.

    Once again, you want to trivialise Anglo-Saxonism because of ZOG Boogeyman, but Germany facilitated Zionism and so what if German Jews in Britain and America shared this goal?
    I mention them as a side-issue, because I know you're in denial about historical Jewish involvement in Anglo affairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall
    You have odd ideas about respecting the sovereignties of people doing their own thing. You must be a rabid EU and UN supporter. Why must peoples everywhere be subject to a human pyramid scheme? I agree with British Isles regionalists the same as those who valued their freedoms before Bismarck snatched them away. I don't agree with telling people they're not allowed to have their own government.
    You mistake you for me. I don't get involved in schemes to carve up other Germanic countries.
    “We think that we are born today tabula rasa without a history, but man has always lived in the myth. To think that man is born without a history within himself — that is a disease. It is absolutely abnormal, because man is not bom every day. He is born into a specific historical setting with specific historical qualities, and therefore, he is only complete when he has a relation to these things. If you are growing up with no connection from the past, it is like being born without eyes and ears and trying to perceive the external world with accuracy. Natural science may say, “You need no connection with the past; you can wipe it out”, but that is a mutilation of the human being.” – Carl Gustav Jung, 1957

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Perhaps in a different time, when European states were constantly at war with each other, a divided Germany would be intrinsically anti-German. But under the modern circumstances, I'm not so sure. For instance, if the old East-Germany would continue as a separate state, they likely would be much less inflicted with mass-immigration, considering the much higher Nationalist sentiments there. The same goes for Bavaria, I would think.

    Scandinavia doesn't have a standard language as the German-speakers have in Hochdeutsch. But to me, there seems to be just as great differences between the different German dialects as there is between the Scandinavian languages/dialects. I imagine a Plattdeutsch-speaker have just as much trouble understanding a Bavarian-speaker, as a Dane has trouble understanding a Northern Swede.

    I would say there is a Scandinavian nation, although there also exists a Norwegian, Swedish and Danish nation. Hence why the different unions were called 'Denmark-Norway' and 'Sweden-Norway', and not just 'Denmark' and 'Sweden'. We have intermingled and evolved together since time immemorial, and still have a sense of common destiny. We more or less follow in each others' footsteps on almost all matters, small and large. Always looking what the other countries are doing, when deciding what we should do ourselves. Our countries also cooperate quite closely together, making travel, work, healthcare and residency across the borders very painless, regardless of any membership in the EU.

    The essence of nationhood could be explored more in depth, but to put it shortly, I don't think there's any larger differences between the different Scandinavian countries, be it socially, economically, politically, culturally or genetically, than there is within the German state.

    Ethnic blocks usually stick together in times of perceived threats from other ethnic blocks. I don't think there was anything coincidental about it.
    How can East Germans be the most nationalist, unless you mean that they reject the Sovietism to which they were subjected? The essence of Germanic identity was distilled in the North long before the Rheinbund in the West, neither Austria nor Prussia, which are German colonies with relative similarities to Virginia and New England with respect to Englishness. If post-Celtic Bavaria can be a Germanic lebensborn state, I don't see why Wales ought not be looked at the same way, even if only an incomplete work in progress. I only mean common ground on both shores of the North Sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    How can East Germans be the most nationalist, unless you mean that they reject the Sovietism to which they were subjected?
    They vote for more nationalist policies than the rest of the country (AfD), and arrange nationalistic demonstrations to a larger degree (Pegida). Perhaps the phenomenon is more specifically secluded to Saxony, but the original notion stands just the same; that different German regions are more nationalistic than others, and therefore could have benefited from independence.
    A nation is an organic thing, historically defined.
    A wave of passionate energy which unites past, present and future generations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    They vote for more nationalist policies than the rest of the country (AfD), and arrange nationalistic demonstrations to a larger degree (Pegida). Perhaps the phenomenon is more specifically secluded to Saxony, but the original notion stands just the same; that different German regions are more nationalistic than others, and therefore could have benefited from independence.
    But how long would a nationalist government, or even independence itself last in a smaller state, especially considering large/strong opponents like the EU or US? Could its military or people withstand a foreign invasion or coup? In such a context, a united Germany, or even Scandinavia might make more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Perhaps in a different time, when European states were constantly at war with each other, a divided Germany would be intrinsically anti-German. But under the modern circumstances, I'm not so sure. For instance, if the old East-Germany would continue as a separate state, they likely would be much less inflicted with mass-immigration, considering the much higher Nationalist sentiments there. The same goes for Bavaria, I would think.
    Power is projected in peace time too - and that includes other power than military power. And is our era stable? The threat of war grows ever day. We experienced 30 years with little to no threat of war, exceptionally long, but that period is ending. It's not the norm in history and it won't be the norm in the future.

    An independent Eastern Germany for the time being to deal with the migration invasion may seem nice on paper, but it can't support itself. It would be a failed state.

    Scandinavia doesn't have a standard language as the German-speakers have in Hochdeutsch. But to me, there seems to be just as great differences between the different German dialects as there is between the Scandinavian languages/dialects. I imagine a Plattdeutsch-speaker have just as much trouble understanding a Bavarian-speaker, as a Dane has trouble understanding a Northern Swede.
    Of little consequence I say. And proper Low German isn't spoken anymore, it's no longer Diets and has not been in a long time.

    I would say there is a Scandinavian nation, although there also exists a Norwegian, Swedish and Danish nation. Hence why the different unions were called 'Denmark-Norway' and 'Sweden-Norway', and not just 'Denmark' and 'Sweden'. We have intermingled and evolved together since time immemorial, and still have a sense of common destiny. We more or less follow in each others' footsteps on almost all matters, small and large. Always looking what the other countries are doing, when deciding what we should do ourselves. Our countries also cooperate quite closely together, making travel, work, healthcare and residency across the borders very painless, regardless of any membership in the EU.
    Well okay then. If Scandinavian subnations want to go at it alone then so be it - but I'm not going to call that choice pro-Scandinavian, after all, that sounds weird too, don't you think? If you were a Norwegian-Swedish unionist back when the country fell apart I bet you considered it somewhat anti-Scandinavian to carve up the country, old chum. It's not necessarily a moral judgement nevertheless.

    But ask Juthunge whether he considers a Bavarian separatist who wants Bavaria to leave Germany anti-German, he will say yes. In a political sense it is and to an extent also socioculturally. We can't call it Germanophobia in the case of a Bavarian separatist however, after all, that's impossible.

    In the same way I call Baorn's vision anti-German, although there's far more to it in his case. His vision itself does not necessarily have to be rooted in Germanophobia, but it is. And his desire for England to annex Northern Germany is very much anti-German, who will argue against that? A very different kind of anti-German attitude than that of a Bavarian separatist nonetheless.

    And yes, I'm aware Baorn does this because he thinks Northern Germans are his kin - he calls this larping "Anglosaxonism", but then again, he also thinks he's of pure Viking descent while living in a sea of inferior West-Germanics, such as Southern Germans, which he somehow considers West-Germanic. That's germanophobia.

    Ethnic blocks usually stick together in times of perceived threats from other ethnic blocks. I don't think there was anything coincidental about it.
    It's a gamble. Some may, some may not. There will be calculations. Look at how this played out historically countless times. Just like some Germanic tribes sided with the Romans (or Huns) to fight against their own kin, so did meso-Americans team up with the invading Spaniards to get rid of Aztec rule. Anything could happen. When the nation is unified by a single state which is under attack, then you can be sure it will fight back and there will be much less infighting. That is a certainty.

    Don't forget: unity is our strength, not diversity.
    “We think that we are born today tabula rasa without a history, but man has always lived in the myth. To think that man is born without a history within himself — that is a disease. It is absolutely abnormal, because man is not bom every day. He is born into a specific historical setting with specific historical qualities, and therefore, he is only complete when he has a relation to these things. If you are growing up with no connection from the past, it is like being born without eyes and ears and trying to perceive the external world with accuracy. Natural science may say, “You need no connection with the past; you can wipe it out”, but that is a mutilation of the human being.” – Carl Gustav Jung, 1957

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    We can't call it Germanophobia in the case of a Bavarian separatist however, after all, that's impossible.
    But it actually is anti-German because it implies a rejection of German identity. You can still be a proud Bavarian inside the German nation, but if you want to split from it, then you reject the very concept that defines it - a commonality and relationship with other Germans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    They vote for more nationalist policies than the rest of the country (AfD), and arrange nationalistic demonstrations to a larger degree (Pegida). Perhaps the phenomenon is more specifically secluded to Saxony, but the original notion stands just the same; that different German regions are more nationalistic than others, and therefore could have benefited from independence.
    Sachsen and Thuringia were indeed a driving force behind Bismarck's German unification. They have resented foreign meddling much earlier than any other region, and when Prussia, which was the cultural builder of German identity (starting with Norddeutsche Bund and later Deutsche Bund), eventually attempted a Greater German Nation they were the first to follow. They wholeheartly supported the Prussian King to become Kaiser of this new German Reich.
    This sentiment, and the will to maintain Germanness and German culture, survived through all the noise of wars, the cold war, Sovietism and the propaganda, and so they are, today, again (still) are the leading substrate of Germany to promote identity and an alternative to globalism. And unlike other regions, are also prepared to stand in and fight for their land. Höcke (not necessarily AfD) and his Wing are Germany's last hope, and he indeed breathes the spirit of Bismarck, and unashamed by all the screaming, sing the third stanza of our Anthem
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtengel
    But it actually is anti-German because it implies a rejection of German identity. You can still be a proud Bavarian inside the German nation, but if you want to split from it, then you reject the very concept that defines it - a commonality and relationship with other Germans.
    Yes, I called it anti-German myself, Nachtengel, but I wouldn't call it germanophobic. There's definitely an aspect of the rejection that is socio-cultural. Yet I make a distinction between what is anti-German and germanophobic because to me germanophobia implies a Bavarian separatist also hates himself, yet he's no more or less German than a Swabian or Germans living up north. And that won't change regardless of independence. A Bavarian can not deny his commonality and relationship with other Germans, he could try of course, he could rewrite all history books, but it won't change anything.

    The German state does not define Germans. The Bavarian who wants to split off may have various reasons for doing so - it could be financial reasons or theoretically it could be about migration. The rejection of the central state itself is not necessarily germanophobic because a Bavarian or an Austrian can be very aware and proud of their German identity, and yet not desire a union or re-unification. They're German regardless of it. The German nation and identity can exist outside of that country we know as Germany.

    But of course I think it's anti-German to advocate separatism or even refuse reunification.
    “We think that we are born today tabula rasa without a history, but man has always lived in the myth. To think that man is born without a history within himself — that is a disease. It is absolutely abnormal, because man is not bom every day. He is born into a specific historical setting with specific historical qualities, and therefore, he is only complete when he has a relation to these things. If you are growing up with no connection from the past, it is like being born without eyes and ears and trying to perceive the external world with accuracy. Natural science may say, “You need no connection with the past; you can wipe it out”, but that is a mutilation of the human being.” – Carl Gustav Jung, 1957

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    National socialism is a failed creed that is adhered to by people who are enamored with an Austrian painter, blowhard, renegade Catholic, etc. who never held a rank higher than that of corporal or lance corporal in the German Army circa WW1.

    Bonaparte had the decency to die reconciled to the Church he once hated.

    "I will not die like a dog."

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yimcat...lic-death.html
    'Militia est vita hominis super terram [The life of man upon earth is a warfare] (Job 7:1).'

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