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Thread: Are There Any Benefits to Marriage for Men?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    5 pages about this already? If marriage has no benefits (for some) ... then don't marry anybody. Nobody is forced to marry anybody in Germanic countries. It is free of choice and good so. If one is not willing to do that, then yes .... the decision might have consequences ... but again that is true with almost every decisions we'll make. Some of those just are bigger, some smaller. Part of life. Get over it. Period! Next thread, please.
    ....
    I think we need to distinguish between marriage as the institution was/is understood traditionally and the legal implications a formal marriage does have to day for the husband and wife in that relationship. Divorce and rights of a divorcee (potentially towards the other partner) come to mind.

    Again, I think we first should address what actually constitutes a marriage. There is of course a formal act and status change, but there is also the content of that institution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I can understand that women are pickier, due to ingrained evolutionary psychology, but I'm not so sure whether they ought to be, in this day and age. Although bearing a child is undoubtably a big sacrifice to make, both parents are required by law (in most Western countries) to support the child equally up until its 18th birthday. Making a child doesn't just require one night's effort from a man nowadays. I think that warrants men to be equally as picky about who they reproduce with as women.
    I agree men ought to be quite picky too but even if you have to pay child support (in Sweden you usually don't have to pay more than around 200 euro per child and month), in most cases it is easier for a father to opt out of his children's life than it is for the mother. Women also lose more of their sexual market value when they have a child than a man does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    True, but should an equal share of unfit women also not get to reproduce?
    No, because of X-linked recessive inheritance, there is a greater spread of quality in different traits among men then women. Intelligence is one example. While women are more centered around average, men are more spread out, so most geniuses and most idiots are male. Since males only have one x chromosome, they are also more vulnerable to mutations on the x chromosome causing defects. So it is reasonable to have a greater evolutionary pressure on the male side. (Optimum would probably be if a far greater proportion of both sexes did not reproduce, something like the child mortality rate before modern medicine.)

    We have about twice as many female ancestors as male ones since most men haven't reproduced. In a civilized society where lifelong monogamy is the norm, the discrepancy wont be as extreme but I still think it is inevitable that some of the top tier men (those at the top of the social hierarchy) will have children with more than one woman, either by breading bastards or divorcing after having a few kids with one woman and remarry with a younger woman to have a second family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I think most men take it quite well, actually, to my experience. The vast majority of men are well familiar with rejection by the time they've reached adulthood, and accepted it as the way of the World.
    Yes, and most of them eventually find a women. At least most of the men I know that are older than 30 have a wife or a girlfriend so it doesn't seem that impossible to get a woman after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Besides, isn't the fact that a lot of men get rejected before they've gotten the chance to make anything more than a superficial first-impression a legitimate cause for concern? How are women supposedly being picky about the choice of fathers for their children, when probably upwards of 90% of men get rejected before a conversation has even started? Fact is, it doesn't make sense, if finding a potential co-parent is the objective. But it does make a lot of sense if one is merely looking for a bed partner.
    I think dating apps and the internet have sort of destroyed the relationship market. Both men and women get the impression that they have a nearly infinite amount of options (which they of course haven't) and probably think they can get something better than they deserve, at least on a superficial level. People have also gotten a lot worse at flirting and forming relationships in real life, men are more cautious about showing any interest in a woman and women often find it creepy when they do. It's sad since we often have more in common with people around us than we think. Those that we meet through studies, work or mutual friends tend to be persons that are close to us in IQ, that we share one or more interest with and have more similar personalities than a randomly selected group of people. That's where we should meet a partner. On a dating app you will have to wade through lots of people you don't have anything in common with, which I believe is very encouraging for many. Women get the impression men only want them for sex and men get the impression barely any women want them at all. That's not how it works when you meet people in real life.

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittra View Post
    We have about twice as many female ancestors as male ones since most men haven't reproduced.
    Could be explained by the standard punishment for the losing side in warfare and violent conflicts is being killed if you're a man, and being raped if you're a woman. Gender discrepancy in evolutionary fitness isn't necessarily a main cause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittra
    Women get the impression men only want them for sex and men get the impression barely any women want them at all. That's not how it works when you meet people in real life.
    Great post, Vittra, but is this not how it works in real life? How often does it happen you meet someone who you'd consider date worthy? Even at the best of times it's like once in 3 years - in your twenties. And even then it's probably online. If it happens more often than that, you're perhaps selling yourself short and settling for someone you do not want. In your thirties it becomes like once in every 5 or even 10 years, if at all.

    I do agree with you that dating apps have ruined dating, even though it's hard to imagine for me how absolutely empty on the inside and depraved one has to be to use a dating app with the same attitude one uses for shopping - yet most people are godless human rubbish that way - forever looking for the next best thing and hence they're the sort of people you need to avoid if you're serious about relationships - but I don't believe the internet has ruined dating. The internet gave all those love shy men, and to a lesser extent love shy women, the kind of opportunity to meet someone again they haven't known since the collapse of patriarchy and (semi-)arranged marriages. I hold that if you can't find a partner online, you're not going to find them offline either. And online you meet new people almost every day, offline you're stuck with the same five to ten options - you almost certainly have very little in common with. And that number hardly increases no matter what kind of activities you're involved with. Dating a coworker seems utterly depressing to me and it's probably a bad idea anyway.

    You could of course argue that on the whole men and women would settle sooner for the uninteresting options offline if there was no online, that's probably true, and that more people would be in a relationship then. And not necessarily pointless relationships either.

    In almost four decades on this planet I had about three women come up to me in real life out of their own accord: one was drunk and lacked teeth, another one was obese & trashy and the third one was a Walloon I shared no common language with - I can imagine how completely annoyed women must be when they're approached by random men in our deregulated sexual market place - the kind of guy who does that is probably not worth your time anyway. And you gotta be a bit deluded or overestimate yourself and perhaps be an avid watcher of movies to approach a complete stranger in real life and imagine something will come from it - that, or you're an African or Arab and used to bothering women in the streets. The internet seems like a very feasible alternative then, finally giving decent people an option to meet someone again. Especially for us (male) preservationists it is a blessing because otherwise you're definitely doomed to dating an at least nominally leftist woman. In real life, almost everyone seems bland and mass produced, you already know what these people think, want and believe before they even opened their mouths. But online people who have something to offer can easily set themselves apart from the most basic of NPCs. Faking intelligence and depth online is almost impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vittra
    It's sad since we often have more in common with people around us than we think.
    I would contest that. I certainly never met anyone of interest through friends/work/study, nor did I have anything in common with them. The pool of potential dates is simply too small.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theunissen View Post
    Again, I think we first should address what actually constitutes a marriage. There is of course a formal act and status change, but there is also the content of that institution.
    I'd go with the natural law argument: marriage constitutes one man and one woman united indissolubly for life and is ordered for the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of children.
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    I would like to slightly open (= discuss) about one angle... connected to marriages (one which I have not seen talked much in forums ... at least very detailedly ways).

    What are husband's and wife's ''responsibilities'' to each others as they have gotten married ... after they both have said ''I do or I will''? If you want, you can response via using religious aspects ... fine. But I'm not religious person and today so are not many others either ... ones who still wants to get marry in Churches. So I prefer more comments/opinions which are not based/connected on Christian religion texts.

    Or are there any of those? Do you think that: ''For better, For worse'' ... simply should cover all ... also in real life? Meaning then that they are bind to each others .... no matter what happens or what ever they do/don't do? After that moment other side has full rights to taken other person for granted?

    Maybe I'm wrong ... but time to time I have gotten feeling that some people thinks that their pro-active needs to keep their partner happy ''can'' end as they have gotten married. The ways they had cared about those at the time they still were dating.
    Personally I think that is stupid though/attitude and might be one reason(s) for rising divorces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I would like to slightly open (= discuss) about one angle... connected to marriages (one which I have not seen talked much in forums ... at least very detailedly ways).

    What are husband's and wife's ''responsibilities'' to each others as they have gotten married ... after they both have said ''I do or I will''? If you want, you can response via using religious aspects ... fine. But I'm not religious person and today so are not many others either ... ones who still wants to get marry in Churches. So I prefer more comments/opinions which are not based/connected on Christian religion texts.
    Or are there any of those? Do you think that: ''For better, For worse'' ... simply should cover all ... also in real life? Meaning then that they are bind to each others .... no matter what happens or what ever they do/don't do? After that moment other side has rights to taken other person for granted?

    Maybe I'm wrong ... but time to time I have gotten feeling that some people thinks that their pro-active needs to keep their partner happy ''can'' end as they have gotten marry. The ways they had cared about those at the time they still were dating.
    Personally I think that is stupid though and might be one reason for divorces.
    If you strip away the Christian meaning behind marriage, there is no need for marriage to be for life. In fact, there is no need for marriage at all. Happiness is volatile. What makes you happy today may not make you happy tomorrow. What about if adultery is what makes your partner happy? This is how open relationships and marriages were born. Too much emphasis on individualism and too little respect for the institution of marriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I would like to slightly open (= discuss) about one angle... connected to marriages (one which I have not seen talked much in forums ... at least very detailedly ways).

    What are husband's and wife's ''responsibilities'' to each others as they have gotten married ... after they both have said ''I do or I will''? If you want, you can response via using religious aspects ... fine. But I'm not religious person and today so are not many others either ... ones who still wants to get marry in Churches. So I prefer more comments/opinions which are not based/connected on Christian religion texts.

    Or are there any of those? Do you think that: ''For better, For worse'' ... simply should cover all ... also in real life? Meaning then that they are bind to each others .... no matter what happens or what ever they do/don't do? After that moment other side has full rights to taken other person for granted?

    Maybe I'm wrong ... but time to time I have gotten feeling that some people thinks that their pro-active needs to keep their partner happy ''can'' end as they have gotten married. The ways they had cared about those at the time they still were dating.
    Personally I think that is stupid though/attitude and might be one reason(s) for rising divorces.
    In my view, taking vows "for better, for worse..." means that you and your spouse will be there for each other in both good and bad times. That means, even when one or both of you are unhappy, ill or depressed and you try to fix these problems together. This is how my parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents treated marriage. Being unhappy didn't mean they should get a divorce. Instead they should communicate and find what makes them unhappy and how it can be fixed. For example, if the wife feels like the husband isn't paying her any attention anymore, a loving husband who cares about his wife will try to remedy it - and a loving wife will have some patience and understanding with him and give him a chance. In my view, as a Christian I don't generally believe in divorce, however there are some exceptional situations where separation may be the best thing. But those are very exceptional situations, where the marital problems can't be fixed, and every other option (like relationship counseling) has been exhausted and failed. But today many peoples divorce without attempting to fix their marriages. As soon as there's a slight problem, they want to divorce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolgadeutscher View Post
    If you strip away the Christian meaning behind marriage, there is no need for marriage to be for life. In fact, there is no need for marriage at all. Happiness is volatile. What makes you happy today may not make you happy tomorrow. What about if adultery is what makes your partner happy? This is how open relationships and marriages were born. Too much emphasis on individualism and too little respect for the institution of marriage.
    Thanks for your quick reply.

    Today most of people here in Scandinavia are not real belivers anymore. As being so ... I assume that ''religion teachings'' will also mean less to them than those who are still real bealivers (like you?). No matter what ... the marriage is still pretty popular here ... among of women (at least). Pretty true with me too.

    So your reply did't exactly handle the matter very closely .... one which I was asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    In my view, taking vows "for better, for worse..." means that you and your spouse will be there for each other in both good and bad times. That means, even when one or both of you are unhappy, ill or depressed and you try to fix these problems together. This is how my parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents treated marriage. Being unhappy didn't mean they should get a divorce. Instead they should communicate and find what makes them unhappy and how it can be fixed. For example, if the wife feels like the husband isn't paying her any attention anymore, a loving husband who cares about his wife will try to remedy it - and a loving wife will have some patience and understanding with him and give him a chance. In my view, as a Christian I don't generally believe in divorce, however there are some exceptional situations where separation may be the best thing. But those are very exceptional situations, where the marital problems can't be fixed, and every other option (like relationship counseling) has been exhausted and failed. But today many peoples divorce without attempting to fix their marriages. As soon as there's a slight problem, they want to divorce.
    Thanks ... I would like to get reply to this particular sentence of mine.

    ''After that moment other side has full rights to taken other person for granted?''

    ... or will your answer be ''Yes'' ... right away (via your post above)?

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