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Thread: Are There Any Benefits to Marriage for Men?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Thanks for your quick reply.

    Today most of people here in Scandinavia are not real belivers anymore. As being so ... I assume that ''religion teachings'' will also mean less to them than those who are still real bealivers (like you?). No matter what ... the marriage is still pretty popular here ... among of women (at least). Pretty true with me too.

    So your reply did't exactly handle the matter very closely .... one which I was asking.
    Let's turn it around then: how many of those non-religious couples who marry believe that marriage should be for life, and why? What speaks against divorcing and re-marrying, if they find a better partner for example?

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  3. #62
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    Marriage can be for life, but there's no reason why it should be for everybody. Folks can make mistakes with their marriages just like they can with their relationships. What about if one of the partners goes crazy, gambles away the family fortune or becomes a criminal? What if they start to abuse their spouse? Cmon. It's better to divorce and fix it than remain tied to the wrong person until they kick the bucket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolgadeutscher View Post
    Let's turn it around then: how many of those non-religious couples who marry believe that marriage should be for life, and why? What speaks against divorcing and re-marrying, if they find a better partner for example?
    1.) Their kids?

    2.) Their common property? Without laying: I know cases in Finland where people can not really divorce ... because of huge loans etc. ... they live in same address (theoretically at least) but not share same bed anymore.

    ... and most of all ... bit what I have meant here ...

    3.) They should live life so that another person will not even get that kind of crazy thoughts in his/hers mind.

  5. #64
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    "Marriage is no excuse for not loving." - Andreas Capellanus, 12th century.







    Even better than Frozen, FS...
    “When a nation forgets her skill in war, when her religion becomes a mockery, when the whole nation becomes a nation of money-grabbers, then the wild tribes, the barbarians drive in.“ – Robert Howard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post

    Even better than Frozen, FS...
    I doubt that .

    I have read old encyclopedias here in Skĺne (my grandparents house). Really beautiful books ... real leather covers ... I have no idea about value of those books .... but pure informative sides? Next to nothing. If we'll skip comic/humorous sides away. And those are only from 19. century.

    Married couple and their kids still will enjoy some advantages/benefits in the eyes of secular societies (at least true in here). As long as those are valid and not equally offered unmarried couples (Church is strongly against that as you can easily understand ... I guess they forgot ''equality'' here?) => marriage hardly is useless.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I would like to slightly open (= discuss) about one angle... connected to marriages (one which I have not seen talked much in forums ... at least very detailedly ways).

    What are husband's and wife's ''responsibilities'' to each others as they have gotten married ... after they both have said ''I do or I will''? If you want, you can response via using religious aspects ... fine. But I'm not religious person and today so are not many others either ... ones who still wants to get marry in Churches. So I prefer more comments/opinions which are not based/connected on Christian religion texts.
    From a purely juridical canon law perspective (religious, but based on natural law), I would say the obligations toward one another are exclusivity, permanence and procreativity, and they are absolutely essential. If you exclude any of these properties, no marriage exists. But from a personalist viewpoint, marriage requires a sincere giving of oneself, in addition to sincerely accepting the other as he or she really is, along with his or her defects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Or are there any of those? Do you think that: ''For better, For worse'' ... simply should cover all ... also in real life? Meaning then that they are bind to each others .... no matter what happens or what ever they do/don't do? After that moment other side has full rights to taken other person for granted?
    I think yes, if there was valid consent and no impediments to the marriage, they are bound together in a sense, but they're certainly not required to live with an abusive or dangerous spouse. From the Catholic viewpoint, a civil divorce doesn't dissolve a valid marriage, and neither spouse can remarry while the other is still living. But most other Christian denominations, of course, don't adhere to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    After that moment other side has full rights to taken other person for granted?
    Never! I think anyone who believes this has a warped vision of marriage. Some people have a tendency to focus on their 'rights', as opposed to their obligations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong ... but time to time I have gotten feeling that some people thinks that their pro-active needs to keep their partner happy ''can'' end as they have gotten married. The ways they had cared about those at the time they still were dating.
    Personally I think that is stupid though/attitude and might be one reason(s) for rising divorces.
    I think each spouse needs to be (at least) as conscious of the other's needs as they are of their own. Certainly, too, there must be communication, support and mutual understanding. But no one is capable of or obliged to completely satisy all of someone else's needs or to make the other 'happy', and these individualistic expectations have probably contributed to the divorce rate.
    'Well, what are you?" said the Pigeon. "I can see you're trying to invent something!" "I-I'm a little girl," said Alice, rather doubtfully. She found herself at last in a beautiful garden, among the bright flower-beds and the cool fountains.



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  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    Never! I think anyone who believes this has a warped vision of marriage. Some people have a tendency to focus on their 'rights', as opposed to their obligations.

    I think each spouse needs to be (at least) as conscious of the other's needs as they are of their own. Certainly, too, there must be communication, support and mutual understanding. But no one is capable of or obliged to completely satisy all of someone else's needs or to make the other 'happy', and these individualistic expectations have probably contributed to the divorce rate.
    Thank you Alice. I think these 2 above should have much much higher priorites (''understandings'') in today's peoples minds (opposite to whining how much we have divorces) .... as taking those seriously => I'm sure divorces would turn to decrease pretty fast.

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  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Great post, Vittra, but is this not how it works in real life? How often does it happen you meet someone who you'd consider date worthy? Even at the best of times it's like once in 3 years - in your twenties. And even then it's probably online. If it happens more often than that, you're perhaps selling yourself short and settling for someone you do not want. In your thirties it becomes like once in every 5 or even 10 years, if at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    I certainly never met anyone of interest through friends/work/study, nor did I have anything in common with them. The pool of potential dates is simply too small.
    I haven't had the same experiences as you, possibly because I am a woman who has always been drawn to male-dominated environments but I don't think I'm as picky either. When I went to university, I studied engineering physics and I'm sure there was quite a few high quality men there. However, I was too shy and withdrawn back then to meet anyone. Now I work at a software company and I would still say there are some good men here. Since I'm an outlier most don't have the same political views or values as me but those working at the same apartment are mostly introverts, intelligent and slightly autistic, just like me. I would have accepted a date with a couple of my male colleagues if they had asked me out. Outside of work I prefer to associate with like-minded people, I meet them at different kinds of events like conferences and concerts, and also smaller meet-ups. When I lived in Stockholm I did this on a regular basis. I'm not single because there hasn't been any men around that are good enough for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    I do agree with you that dating apps have ruined dating, even though it's hard to imagine for me how absolutely empty on the inside and depraved one has to be to use a dating app with the same attitude one uses for shopping - yet most people are godless human rubbish that way - forever looking for the next best thing and hence they're the sort of people you need to avoid if you're serious about relationships - but I don't believe the internet has ruined dating. The internet gave all those love shy men, and to a lesser extent love shy women, the kind of opportunity to meet someone again they haven't known since the collapse of patriarchy and (semi-)arranged marriages. I hold that if you can't find a partner online, you're not going to find them offline either. And online you meet new people almost every day, offline you're stuck with the same five to ten options - you almost certainly have very little in common with. And that number hardly increases no matter what kind of activities you're involved with. Dating a coworker seems utterly depressing to me and it's probably a bad idea anyway.
    I was a bit sloppy just writing "internet", I was mainly thinking about internet dating using traditional dating sites. If you are an outlier, internet has indeed made it a lot easier to find like-minded people.

    I still think that in general it is better to meet someone in real life through some kind of mutual context where you can see how this person interacts with others, where you can talk to them and get to know them in a casual manner and where you can get a second opinion from people who know them better. If you start dating someone you have worked with for example, you have probably seen how they react to stress, how they act when they are tired and how they solve problems and conflicts. They might not act exactly the same in a relationship but you will get some important cues about their character. You will have to work harder to figure these things out if you start dating a complete stranger you've found on the internet.

    I've tried to imagine how it used to be a few generations back when most swedes lived in small villages and you rarely travelled that far from home. I guess most didn't go farther than to the nearby villages to find a partner and then you probably didn't have more than a handful of realistic options (and I bet your parents would like to have a say too). Still I think they were happier with their marriages than people are today. You might have heard of the paradox of choice, a theory claiming that too many options make us less happy, because an abundance of options makes it harder to choose ("choice overload") and also makes it harder to judge if we made the best choice, and thus leaving us less satisfied with the choices we've made. Studies on this have given mixed results though so it might not be true or only applicable in certain situations, but I think it sounds reasonable in regards to relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittra View Post
    I think dating apps and the internet have sort of destroyed the relationship market. Both men and women get the impression that they have a nearly infinite amount of options (which they of course haven't) and probably think they can get something better than they deserve, at least on a superficial level. People have also gotten a lot worse at flirting and forming relationships in real life, men are more cautious about showing any interest in a woman and women often find it creepy when they do. It's sad since we often have more in common with people around us than we think. Those that we meet through studies, work or mutual friends tend to be persons that are close to us in IQ, that we share one or more interest with and have more similar personalities than a randomly selected group of people. That's where we should meet a partner. On a dating app you will have to wade through lots of people you don't have anything in common with, which I believe is very encouraging for many. Women get the impression men only want them for sex and men get the impression barely any women want them at all. That's not how it works when you meet people in real life.
    Interesting point. I feel this is true for the majority of people, but on the other hand I'm glad that the internet exists, because I met my husband online. As a nationalist, I think it's better to search online on sites with like-minded people. However, if someone is a political NPC and thinks like most people think, I agree with you that it's better for them to search offline and in the "real life".

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolgadeutscher View Post
    If you strip away the Christian meaning behind marriage, there is no need for marriage to be for life. In fact, there is no need for marriage at all. Happiness is volatile. What makes you happy today may not make you happy tomorrow. What about if adultery is what makes your partner happy? This is how open relationships and marriages were born. Too much emphasis on individualism and too little respect for the institution of marriage.
    What does Christianity have to do with this? We are Germanics, so we should be Pagans. And the Pagan Germanics did not let their women sleep around and divorce their men for nothing. People don't need to be christian in order to live with honor, ethics and high morals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolgadeutscher View Post
    Let's turn it around then: how many of those non-religious couples who marry believe that marriage should be for life, and why?
    I'm far from being christian and I think marriage should be for life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittra
    I haven't had the same experiences as you, possibly because I am a woman who has always been drawn to male-dominated environments but I don't think I'm as picky either.
    Maybe I'm picky, but I'm not convinced about that - low quality people are the norm in our zombie societies. If you were not raised by wolves you're automatically disinterested in people who were - having a little bit in the way of a standard will already accomplish that. It makes you an outlier by definition. It could be a cultural difference too, not sure. When I tell fellow Flemings about my meeting 1 special person in 3 years rule, they always agree. Swedes are not the world's most outgoing people, but I live in a closed society, the result of 700 years of foreign occupation: we keep to ourselves. That used to be safer in the past, but by now this mentality has become part of our culture.

    I still think that in general it is better to meet someone in real life through some kind of mutual context where you can see how this person interacts with others, where you can talk to them and get to know them in a casual manner and where you can get a second opinion from people who know them better.
    You can do that by moving from online to offline too. You could still date them for months if you feel you don't know them well enough yet.

    If you start dating someone you have worked with for example, you have probably seen how they react to stress, how they act when they are tired and how they solve problems and conflicts. They might not act exactly the same in a relationship but you will get some important cues about their character. You will have to work harder to figure these things out if you start dating a complete stranger you've found on the internet.
    Yes, true. That's one benefit of getting to know someone IRL. Although when you know each other in cyber space for many, many years, verging on two decades - like several Skadi moderators do - and we've been through a lot together too - you know each other far better than most of your extended family members. And you know how everyone will react to different kinds of situations before they enfold.

    I've tried to imagine how it used to be a few generations back when most swedes lived in small villages and you rarely travelled that far from home. I guess most didn't go farther than to the nearby villages to find a partner and then you probably didn't have more than a handful of realistic options (and I bet your parents would like to have a say too).
    A very different context indeed. But these people were better than us and their laws and customs were better than ours - even the beauty standards were different as well as their standards for marriage, far more simple and practical. Someone's personal character and identity would've mattered a good deal less in a society which is not about the individual or standing out from the group. Virtually everyone would've been Christian, socially conservative and intensely patriotic too - even the leftists. Society wasn't fragmented, but monolithic, and so were people's thoughts. And it was low tech, with everything that entails. Living in the countryside as opposed to suburbia or the city would've reduced levels of anxiety as well, people were saner all around. Having only five to ten options in such a context is a completely different matter. One would not need more options.

    Two or three out of these ten people would've been physically attractive enough too I would think - and if they had a solid reputation on top of that, which you had to have - you were good to go.
    “When a nation forgets her skill in war, when her religion becomes a mockery, when the whole nation becomes a nation of money-grabbers, then the wild tribes, the barbarians drive in.“ – Robert Howard

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