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Thread: On the Subracial Makeup of the Aryans / Europeans

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    Senior Member cosmocreator's Avatar
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    Post On the Subracial Makeup of the Aryans / Europeans

    I've been trying to get an unbiased understanding of where we came from and who we are. This is my interpretation and my knowledge is limited.

    I think the Upper Paleolithic (UP) group make up all Northern Europeans: Brunn, Borreby, Falish, Anglo-Saxon, Tronder, Keltic. I think Hallstatt is a reduced Anglo-Saxon and realted to UP. UP are not Aryan.

    UP probably had its beginning around SW France. However, UP sites have been found all over the world from the Clovis sites in America, and from Alaska to South America, Africa, Asia and Australia. I think Kennewick man is UP.

    Sub-types like Paleo-Atlantid and North Atlantid are Atlanto-Mediterranean/UP mix. Mediterraneans are not UP.

    So who were the Aryans? Who brought the Indo-European languages to Europe? They were the BAttle Axe people. I was looking at a bust of Sargon the Great who united the Akkadians and Sumerians and thought he looked Danubian. It is known that at least some Sumerians were blue-eyed and that they came from the north. Their language was neither Semitic or I-E. However, the type of Battle Axes that were found in Europe were also found where the Sumerians lived. Coincidence? Probably not. And it places the Sumerians near Iran and India just before the arrival of the Aryans. There may be some truth in saying, as some authors have, that the IE languages had an origin where present day Ukrain is -- the Danubians.

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    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
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    I am inclined to agree with most of what you said. I had read that the Sumerians did in fact speak an I-E language, but I am not sure how reliable the source was. It is clear they did not speak a Semitic language. I also have believed for some time that the origin of Aryans was in southern Russia/Ukraine. The question in my mind was where to draw the line between UP and Aryan. I am still uncertain, but your arguments make sense. What I did know was that Meds were neither Aryan nor UP. I am still not clear where Alpines fit into all of this. They have been given an Eastern origin by some, and a UP origin by others.

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    What I would like to know is: what is the relationship (culturally and racially) between the Danubians and the BAs? I know Ross knows alot about this, and he told me in the "meds are semites" (I mean in the 'what seperates meds from semites', whoops) thread that BA's are Aryan, Danubians are not.
    I know Coon said that the BA and Danubian types ARE different..but do they have a common root somewhere? And which are proto-Indo-European? Just one, or both?

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    ns1488ca,

    1. UP in SW France - take a look at the article I posted... smth like Ancient population of Latvia

    2. It's very probable that Nordics are reduced UP, but not AS, as AS appeared later...

    3. Your assumption that PAs have significant UP admixture is not based on the stats, I believe... first of all, they're dolichocephalic (see Coon), second, dark pigmented:

    In only one published British series was a Martin eye color chart used - that of von Luschan's British scientists, a highly selected group of 84 men returning from a scientific congress in Australia.22 Of this group, which included Charles Darwin the younger, 29.8 per cent had pure light eyes (Martin #15-16); 27.4 per cent light-mixed eyes (Martin #12-14); 2.4 per cent pure dark eyes (Martin #1-4); while the remaining 40.4 per cent had medium- or dark-mixed irises. According to most European standards the total of lights would be considered 57 per cent. This small series is as light eyed as some of the Norwegian coastal groups, but not as light as most of Scandinavia, or as Ireland.

    In the large, regional studies of British eye color, 62 per cent of English are called light eyed, and 34 per cent dark. On this basis the fishermen of the English North Sea coast have as much as 90 per cent of light eyes, and, at the same time, the Cornish run as low as 55 per cent. Other ratios of 55 per cent to 60 per cent occur in towns and cities scattered throughout England, and seem typical of urban populations. The Cornish, who are the darkest eyed of the English, are still predominantly a light-mixedeyed people, as are the English as a whole. No typically brunet population may be found in England.

    4. It seems you're not logical with your BA-Danubians parallels...

    Kalos,

    Danubians mixed with BAs and formed the Nordic Race, which is predominatly Danubian, plus BA and UP.

    Perhaps they're related, but we have no information on the subject.

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    << Danubians mixed with BAs and formed the Nordic Race, which is predominatly Danubian, plus BA and UP. >>

    Ah ok. This tallies with what I have learned.

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    During the UP period, Northern Europe was covered in Ice, and it wasn't until 6,500 BC that the sea level rose sufficiently [after the Ice had melted] to cut off Britain from the continent.
    The UP peoples in the main, as you say, would have resided in southern Europe during this period.

    The Mediterranean [Old European] was of course around in the UP period and before, and was the principle Caucasian race from which all the main Caucasian subraces descended.

    This Med race started from the middle east and spread out in all directions, including Europe as far as Britain, North Africa, the Black Sea region and India.

    The Aryan culture probably emerges about 5,000 years ago in the Black Sea area with Irano-Afghans and Nordics.
    In the second millennia BC the latter brought the culture we now know as 'Aryan' to northern India and to the fertile crescent.

    Of course, this was only one of the latest of various waves of Caucasian migration from the UP period [starting 40,000 years ago] onwards.

    Ultimately, the Aryans - whether Irano-Afghans or Nordics, were descended from the Early Meds.
    Last edited by Moody; Friday, February 14th, 2003 at 04:40 PM.

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Moody Lawless

    Ultimately, the Aryans - whether Irano-Afghans or Nordics, were descended from the Early Meds.
    Ultimately, it cannot be proven...

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    i]Originally posted by Ross [/i]
    ns1488ca,

    1. UP in SW France - take a look at the article I posted... smth like Ancient population of Latvia


    You want to post a link to it. I don't know which one it is.


    2. It's very probable that Nordics are reduced UP, but not AS, as AS appeared later...


    Good response. Is it possible that there is no evidence that A-S appeared before Nordics? It's just odd that a gracile Nordic would evolve toward a big-boned A-S. Even if Nordics were mixed with Brunn to create A-S it is odd that Nordic characteristics would predominate over the Brunn.


    3. Your assumption that PAs have significant UP admixture is not based on the stats, I believe... first of all, they're dolichocephalic (see Coon), second, dark pigmented:


    It just seemed logical to me. Two groups Meds and UP lived together but didn't mix? Some mixing most have occurred over a 10,000 year period.


    4. It seems you're not logical with your BA-Danubians parallels...

    Kalos,

    Danubians mixed with BAs and formed the Nordic Race, which is predominatly Danubian, plus BA and UP.

    Perhaps they're related, but we have no information on the subject.


    Where did the Danubians come from? The BA? I have my doubts that they are Med because the lack of pigment. So are they an UP derivative as well? What are your thoughts on the Sumerians?

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    Senior Member cosmocreator's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NordischesBlutundEhre
    I am still not clear where Alpines fit into all of this. They have been given an Eastern origin by some, and a UP origin by others.
    I've been struggling with this one as well. I'm leaning toward an UP origin. Their build, their location, and they have a closer resemblance to the Cro Magnon found in France. They may be less divergent from Cro Magnon than the Nordish group.

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    You want to post a link to it. I don't know which one it is.
    ======
    It simply mentioned early UPs came from France

    2. It's very probable that Nordics are reduced UP, but not AS, as AS appeared later...


    Good response. Is it possible that there is no evidence that A-S appeared before Nordics? It's just odd that a gracile Nordic would evolve toward a big-boned A-S. Even if Nordics were mixed with Brunn to create A-S it is odd that Nordic characteristics would predominate over the Brunn.
    ======
    No, they don't... depends on intermixture, read Coon



    3. Your assumption that PAs have significant UP admixture is not based on the stats, I believe... first of all, they're dolichocephalic (see Coon), second, dark pigmented:


    It just seemed logical to me. Two groups Meds and UP lived together but didn't mix? Some mixing most have occurred over a 10,000 year period.
    =============
    yeah, there was some mixing, but we're talking about existing types... Irish Bruenns are very light eyed - and you saw stats for Britain?

    4. It seems you're not logical with your BA-Danubians parallels...

    Kalos,

    Danubians mixed with BAs and formed the Nordic Race, which is predominatly Danubian, plus BA and UP.

    Perhaps they're related, but we have no information on the subject.


    Where did the Danubians come from? The BA? I have my doubts that they are Med because the lack of pigment. So are they an UP derivative as well? What are your thoughts on the Sumerians? [/B][/QUOTE]
    ==================
    Don't know about Sumerians. BAs were brown-haired, light eyes, perhaps, as Coon suggests

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