View Poll Results: Which of these lost, assimilated or highly marginalized Germanic groups do you find most interesting

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  • Alsatians

    2 14.29%
  • Anglo-Irish

    3 21.43%
  • Baltic Germans

    3 21.43%
  • Danube Swabians

    3 21.43%
  • East Brandonburgers

    1 7.14%
  • East Pomeranians

    1 7.14%
  • Prussians (East and West Prussia, not kingdom)

    5 35.71%
  • Silesians

    3 21.43%
  • South Tyroleans

    3 21.43%
  • Sudetanlanders

    2 14.29%
  • Swedish Finss & Estonians

    4 28.57%
  • Transylvanian Saxons

    6 42.86%
  • Ulster Scots

    1 7.14%
  • Volga Germans

    5 35.71%
  • Other

    0 0%
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Thread: Which Of These Lost Or Highly Marginalized Germanic Groups Do You Find Most Interesting?

  1. #1
    Member Pioneer Stock's Avatar
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    Which Of These Lost Or Highly Marginalized Germanic Groups Do You Find Most Interesting?

    Criteria:
    • European continent only. We're not talking about the diaspora around the world
    • Groups must have been displaced, assimilated or their influence greatly marginalized within the last century or two. So we're not talking about the Middle Ages or Migration era.
    • Only groups that existed in presently non-Germanic nations. So we're not talking about the Frisians assimilating into Dutch society


    I'm only using the major or oldest ones. So if you want to make an argument for Zipser Germans or another small group choose other and give a description.

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  3. #2
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    I think this is an interesting question...

    I find all Germanic groups interesting, it's hard to make just one choice... but I'll be subjective and choose the groups which make up my own heritage.

    One of them is Buchenlanddeutsche (Bukowina Germans) and the other one is Daci (Dacians), probably also along with Carpi (Carpians) and Bastarni (Bastarnae).

    Pliny the Elder named five races of Germans, including also Daci (Dacians) and Bastarni (Bastarnae):

    Quote Originally Posted by Pliny the Elder, in Historia Naturalis
    There are five German races; the Vandili, parts of whom are the Burgundiones, the Varini, the Carini, and the Gutones: the Ingćvones, forming a second race, a portion of whom are the Cimbri, the Teutoni, and the tribes of the Chauci. The Istćvones, who join up to the Rhine, and to whom the Cimbri [sic, repeated] belong, are the third race; while the Hermiones, forming a fourth, dwell in the interior, and include the Suevi, the Hermunduri, the Chatti, the Cherusci, and the Peucini, who are also the Basternć, adjoining the Daci.
    Daci, Carpi and Bastarni are considered Germanics by some, but not by all authors.

    For example, in this map Daci (Dacians) in Dacia are treated as a distinct people from Germanics in Germania (it could have been for political reasons only):



    Here is another map where Daci (Dacians) and Carpi (Carpians) are treated as one distinct people, distinct from other Germanics:



    I think it's interesting how Dacians are treated in a distinct way, having their own category, separated from any other peoples around them.

    There are also authors who say that the Getians and the Goths were the same people (in Latin their names are much more similar one to another), which would again make Dacians/ Geto-Dacians count as Germanics, while other authors say that they weren't the same people, that they were distinct tribes. Who knows?

    There was also the Swedish author called Petrus de Dacia (or Petrus de Gotlandia), Dacia being also the name of the province in Northern Europe, Gotlandia (More about Petrus de Dacia here and here). Zalmoxis, the first law giver of the Getae by Carolus Lundius is an interesting Swedish source that considers Swedes as having their origins in Dacia, Danes and Dacians also being closely related, so according to which Dacians could be considered Germanics (or at least the people of origin for Germanics).

    On the territory of present day Romania (old Dacia of Burebista) there are many archaeological findings that belong to Germanic culture, for example the ring of Pietroassa, which
    features a Gothic language inscription in the Elder Futhark runic alphabet.




    There are many objects with runic inscriptions that were found on the territory of today's Romania and which can be seen in museums in Romania...

    Personally I didn't think of Dacians as being Germanics until recently, when finding out about the above mentioned things... More than half of my own heritage is Dacian, as far as I know, and I was reading about Dacian culture and spirituality since I was a teenager. I might dedicate a thread to the Dacians when I'll find enough time for that.
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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    Pliny the Elder named five races of Germans, including also Daci (Dacians) and Bastarni (Bastarnae):

    Daci, Carpi and Bastarni are considered Germanics by some, but not by all authors.
    Literally no one considered Dacians or Carpi Germanic. Your own quote of Pliny clearly states that the Bastarnae (already a mixed tribe themselves, according to Tacitus "mixed marriages are giving [the Bastarnae] to some extent the vile appearance of the Sarmatians" and their name might actually be related to "bastards") are adjoining the Dacians, not that the Dacians are Germanic (most simply saw Dacians as Thracians). And even the Germanic identity of the Bastarnae stands on rather shaky grounds.

    There are also authors who say that the Getians and the Goths were the same people (in Latin their names are much more similar one to another), which would again make Dacians/ Geto-Dacians count as Germanics, while other authors say that they weren't the same people, that they were distinct tribes. Who knows?

    There was also the Swedish author called Petrus de Dacia (or Petrus de Gotlandia), Dacia being also the name of the province in Northern Europe, Gotlandia (More about Petrus de Dacia here and here). Zalmoxis, the first law giver of the Getae by Carolus Lundius is an interesting Swedish source that considers Swedes as having their origins in Dacia, Danes and Dacians also being closely related, so according to which Dacians could be considered Germanics (or at least the people of origin for Germanics).
    So now we have arrived at using obscure medieval and early modern authors, that had the same mere etymological problems to distinguish between the name of the Goths and the Getae like the Late Romans, to construct a Germanic identity for Dacians?

    On the territory of present day Romania (old Dacia of Burebista) there are many archaeological findings that belong to Germanic culture, for example the ring of Pietroassa, which



    There are many objects with runic inscriptions that were found on the territory of today's Romania and which can be seen in museums in Romania...
    Yeah, that's because actual Germanic peoples at some point did live in southeastern territory during the Migration Age. That doesn't mean that the Dacians, Getae or Carpi were Germanic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Yeah, that's because actual Germanic peoples at some point did live in southeastern territory during the Migration Age.
    The maps and archaeological findings I saw in the museums traced such findings as being older than the Migration Age.

    Thanks for your opinions! I know not everyone agrees with those I mentioned above, and I think everyone is free to have their own opinions on such controversial issues. However, I do not want to say that "Romanians" could be considered Germanics, no way, I am mentioning this just to be sure I am properly understood! Even on the second map I mentioned there are Iranian peoples in Southern territory of present day Romania and also some present day Romanians from the south look very similar to whites in Middle East, including Iran. And these don't have anything to do with Germanics, obviously! Romania today is a very mixed country, with Romanians actually having very different backgrounds...


    Now back to the topic, I also find all German ethnic groups that have lived and still live in Romania very interesting. I've been once to a museum exhibition about Germans in Romania and I was so surprised to discover so many diverse ethnic groups of Germans that have lived in Romania in the last few centuries (more recent migration). The exhibition was very well documented, with a lot of interesting maps, pictures and other materials, and I feel sorry now for not being inspired enough to have taken my camera with me in order to take some pictures of the exhibition. Lots of interesting information I didn't know of before that, including about Bukowina Germans.
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    Transylvanian Saxons

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    For me I really like the ones with Medieval foundings(which is a lot). I'm partial towards Silesians because I'm 1/16 Silesian from Liegnitz. The Prussians always interested me with their Teutonic Knights heritage and the fact that they've produced intellectual giants like Copernicus and Kant.

    Also I really like the Anglo-Irish for how influential they were. It seems like almost every significant Irish figure were actually Anglos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_people

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    If Dacians supposedly were Germanic, then there surely should be some linguistic remnants of their language showing a connection to Proto-Germanic languages. Here's a list of 160 words in modern Romanian which are thought to possibly have Dacian origins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Dacian_origin

    I can't see much of a similarity to Germanic languages. Their cognates are found in either Latin, Albanian, Greek, or Slavic. The only exception being 'gard' (fence), which does have Germanic cognates (in Old Norse and Gothic), as well as Old Slavic languages.

    So then the possible Dacian connection to Germanics rests on some ancient authors mentioning the Dacians in the same sentence as some Germanic tribes, and naming them ('Getians') in a fashion similar to 'Goths', as well as a ring with runic inscriptions in Gothic found in Romania (coincidentally an area which the Goths were migrating through at the same point in time)? Not very convincing.
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    Not to mention that the Daci didn't speak a Germanic language like Germanic tribes did, and remember that Germanics were an ethno-linguistic group. Runes were used by non-Germanic peoples as well (for example, Turkic runes) and finding them in a certain area or a population using them doesn't necessarily mean that they are predominantly Germanic. Cyrillic script was used in Romania at some point, and yet Romanians aren't counted as Slavs. More than likely though, the ancient Germanic influence in Romania stems from the Goths, another Germanic tribe who was present in the area. Also, Pliny the Elder did not actually claim that the Daci were Germanic, he simply mentioned them as a neighboring tribe.

    Sure, history is not an exact science but we still can make approximations that are backed up by a majority of evidence. There is not an overwhelming number of historical, archeological, linguistic or genetic evidence to suggest that the Daci were Germanic and if Romanians are the predominant descendants of the Daci, they would cluster together with other populations that descend from Germanic tribes. Particularly with the Swedes and the Danes, if they really originated in Dacia. And yet this isn't the case. We do have genetic evidence that Germanics originated in the same place, and Scandinavians do cluster together, but Romanians are not even closely related on a genetic level. How do you explain this? If they all originated in the same place, genetic tests would surely support the theory.

    Anyway, from the list, I find the Transylvanian Saxons the most interesting group from a cultural point of view. However, if the emphasis is on marginalized, I would say the Sudetanlanders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    However, I do not want to say that "Romanians" could be considered Germanics, no way, I am mentioning this just to be sure I am properly understood! Even on the second map I mentioned there are Iranian peoples in Southern territory of present day Romania and also some present day Romanians from the south look very similar to whites in Middle East, including Iran. And these don't have anything to do with Germanics, obviously! Romania today is a very mixed country, with Romanians actually having very different backgrounds...
    Just curious, but if Romanians are a mixed people of different backgrounds as you say, then how do you estimate which Romanians are and which aren't Germanic? Aren't you yourself Romanian, yet you count yourself as Germanic? On what basis, how do you get to that conclusion? Have you taken a genetic test which revealed it, or do you have any genetic data which estimates how much % of Romanians could be Germanic? Or do you base it on your looks? Because I don't think I need to tell you that not everyone who looks Nordic is Germanic, or viceversa. While Scandinavians are generally Nordic, there are darker Germanics in Central Europe and Nordic people in Russia who aren't Germanic.

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