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Thread: Race and Genetics of the Finnish people

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    Race and Genetics of the Finnish people

    Moderator's note:

    The following 6 posts have been split from The Most Nordish Region in the U.S.?


    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Rentz View Post
    The UP of Michigan is strongly Nordish with many ancestors from Finnland, including my ex-wife's family. All blue-eyed blondes from the Lapland area.
    What Nordish means?

    Lapland?


    Lapland is a home yard of Samis people (for sure there are ethnic Finns living as well).
    In Finnish: Lappalainen is a Sami but Lappilainen is a Finn who lives in Lapland
    I like that area a lot (for hiking and relaxing). Very fresh air, waters of small streams of mountains ... always cold and fully clean/drinkable, no people at all, full silence around / no sounds of humans ... just wild frontier. ...

    Some Samis (minority) can be light haired:





    But they are not Nordid (phenotype). Not even many ''Finns'' are ... even someway/as a mix ... if we'll skip Finnish Swedes and secondly Western Finns away. Samis have often shorter and clearly more round faces, stronger/higher cheeks ... and their whole body types (bone structure) differs from Scandinavians (even from Finns). Samis are shorter (clearly!). And for their own sizes ... they have short legs, long arms and big heads. If Finn has Samis blood ... those are the features which most often exposes it first (plus a very dark hair and sometimes brown eyes).

    Personally I have nothing against Samis people. I face/meet them only as being in Lapland but they have never disturbed me or caused problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    What Nordish means?

    Lapland?


    Lapland is a home yard of Samis people (for sure there are ethnic Finns living as well).
    In Finnish: Lappalainen is a Sami but Lappilainen is a Finn who lives in Lapland
    I like that area a lot (for hiking and relaxing). Very fresh air, waters of small streams of mountains ... always cold and fully clean/drinkable, no people at all, full silence around / no sounds of humans ... just wild frontier. ...

    Some Samis (minority) can be light haired:





    But they are not Nordid (phenotype). Not even many ''Finns'' are ... even someway/as a mix ... if we'll skip Finnish Swedes and secondly Western Finns away. Samis have often shorter and clearly more round faces, stronger/higher cheeks ... and their whole body types (bone structure) differs from Scandinavians (even from Finns). Samis are shorter (clearly!). And for their own sizes ... they have short legs, long arms and big heads. If Finn has Samis blood ... those are the features which most often exposes it first (plus a very dark hair and sometimes brown eyes).

    Personally I have nothing against Samis people. I face/meet them only as being in Lapland but they have never disturbed me or caused problems.
    Well, I doubt that there are many pure Finns living in the US. This girl is one quarter Finnish and identifies as Finnish. She wrote:

    How cool! My Mom always said I was a definitely a Finn growing up because I was so much like that side of the family compared to her German/British family.

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    Finns are 10% Mongoloid and have a nearer relation to Tatars and Chuvash than to Scandinavians.

    The Chuvash, who are Tatarized Finns, include both partially mongoloid forms, as shown on Plate 3, and also Nordics and Nordic-Ladogan hybrids. The Chuvash shown here is a Nordic of a long-faced, narrow-nosed type, and his Nordic character may be either ancestrally Finnish or else derived from the Iranian and Turkish-speaking Nordics of central Asia, brought in both by Scytho-Sarmatians and by Turkish invaders.
    The Races of Europe, C.Coon, 1939, Photographic Supplements, Exotic Nordics

    Dodecad K7b for a Finn with roots in Savonia:

    dmix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic_Baltic 79.29
    2 Siberian 10.32
    3 West_Asian 7.71
    4 South_Asian 1.46


    Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
    7 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 FIN30 @ 3.793527
    2 Finnish @ 4.289494
    3 Russian @ 5.982052
    4 Russian @ 8.313184
    5 Russian_B @ 8.814853
    6 Mordovians @ 10.117796
    7 Belorussian @ 10.368294
    8 Lithuanian @ 10.515162
    9 Swedish @ 11.070503
    10 Norwegian @ 11.779844
    11 Polish @ 11.834509
    12 Mixed_Slav @ 12.014628
    13 Lithuanians @ 12.623351
    14 Ukranians @ 13.461567
    15 Orkney @ 14.071034
    16 Argyll @ 14.151915
    17 Orcadian @ 14.587643
    18 Irish @ 14.859762
    19 British @ 15.177915
    20 British_Isles @ 15.214399


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 FIN30 + FIN30 + FIN30 + Russian @ 2.143654

    Dodecad V3:

    West_European 47.93%
    East_European 31.36%
    Mediterranean 8.36%
    Northeast_Asian 7.49%
    West_Asian 2.41%
    Southeast_Asian 2.24%
    South_Asian 0.22%
    Neo_African -
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian -
    Northwest_African -
    Palaeo_African -


    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 FIN @ 8.600430
    2 Finnish @ 9.969612
    3 Polish @ 21.986406
    4 Slovenian @ 22.094454
    5 Mixed_Slav @ 22.148821
    6 German @ 22.322506
    7 Hungarians @ 22.859608
    8 Russian @ 23.800045
    9 Russian @ 24.480520
    10 N._European @ 27.532587
    11 Swedish @ 27.535694
    12 Argyll @ 27.616291
    13 Orkney @ 28.667305
    14 CEU @ 28.717003
    15 Orcadian @ 28.762934
    16 Norwegian @ 31.477734
    17 Chuvashs_16 @ 31.803366
    18 Lithuanians @ 32.532585
    19 Belorussian @ 32.596809
    20 Mixed_Germanic @ 33.358246

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Chuvashs_16 + FIN + Finnish + Swedish @ 2.663900
    2 British_Isles + Chuvashs_16 + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.674455
    3 British + Chuvashs_16 + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.696377
    4 Chuvashs_16 + FIN + Finnish + Norwegian @ 2.721018
    5 Chuvashs_16 + FIN + Finnish + Orkney @ 2.789912

    Dodecad K12b:

    Gedrosia 3.37%
    Siberian 8.33%
    Northwest_African -
    Southeast_Asian 0.57%
    Atlantic_Med 17.73%
    North_European 66.00%
    South_Asian 0.52%
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 1.06%
    East_Asian 0.94%
    Caucasus 1.47%
    Sub_Saharan -


    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 FIN30 @ 8.903809
    2 Russian @ 9.804201
    3 Finnish @ 11.173496
    4 Russian @ 12.223836
    5 Mordovians @ 13.241546
    6 Mixed_Slav @ 14.080208
    7 Polish @ 14.461360
    8 Belorussian @ 14.970073
    9 Russian_B @ 15.120755
    10 Lithuanian @ 15.190302
    11 Lithuanians @ 16.310833
    12 Ukranians @ 17.634661
    13 Swedish @ 19.872149
    14 Chuvashs @ 22.841408
    15 Norwegian @ 23.303078
    16 Hungarians @ 25.994831
    17 German @ 26.570721
    18 Dutch @ 31.584103
    19 Mixed_Germanic @ 32.480453
    20 Orkney @ 33.297104

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Chuvashs + Finnish + Finnish + Norwegian @ 2.383602
    2 Chuvashs + Finnish + Finnish + Swedish @ 2.611957
    3 Chuvashs + FIN30 + Finnish + Norwegian @ 2.678406
    4 Chuvashs + FIN30 + Finnish + Swedish @ 2.741190
    5 Chuvashs + FIN30 + FIN30 + Swedish @ 2.964833

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    As this being Germanic forum, I don't see any reasons to start to discuss much what Finns are and what they are not (if one is interesting about topic ... he/she can find information ... but even more so called troll posts ... so keep that in minds . Or what they have been...
    Especially as they are one of the few Europeans whose all secrets of backgrounds (mixing and migrations) are not (yet) clear. Samis? They are even more complicated ethnic.

    Basically Finns are pretty distant to all Europeans (which unique among of European ethnics ... as Europeans used to be pretty close ... and especially to their closest neighbours ... via mixing, rapes etc.). That fact still doesn't make Finns close to any non-Europeans (like some often read or understand the above matter). Finns are clearly even more distant to all of those ....
    What I have heard ... the most closest ethnic to Finns are Estonians and Swedish.
    Genetic differences between Finland and Finns (even today) are pretty huge .... bigger than for example genetic differences among of Swedes (South Sweden vs North Sweden).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

    Just copied two parts from that ...

    ''Variation within Finns is, according to fixation index (FST) values, greater than anywhere else in Europe. Greatest intra-Finnish FST distance is found about 60, greatest intra-Swedish FST distance about 25.[59][60] FST distances between for example Germans, French and Hungarians is only 10, and between Estonians, Russians and Poles it is also 10.''

    '' The closest genetic relatives for Finns are Estonians (FST to Helsinki 40 and to Kuusamo 90) and Swedes (FST to Helsinki 50 and to Kuusamo 100).''

    Some other ''interesting'' articles...
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/f...ir_own/6151334

    https://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...-europeans.htm

    https://www.getscience.com/disruptiv...ween-genes-and

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    As this being Germanic forum, I don't see any reasons to start to discuss much what Finns are and what they are not (if one is interesting about topic ... he/she can find information ... but even more so called troll posts ... so keep that in minds . Or what they have been...
    Especially as they are one of the few Europeans whose all secrets of backgrounds (mixing and migrations) are not (yet) clear. Samis? They are even more complicated ethnic.

    Basically Finns are pretty distant to all Europeans (which unique among of European ethnics ... as Europeans used to be pretty close ... and especially to their closest neighbours ... via mixing, rapes etc.). That fact still doesn't make Finns close to any non-Europeans (like some often read or understand the above matter). Finns are clearly even more distant to all of those ....
    What I have heard ... the most closest ethnic to Finns are Estonians and Swedish.
    Genetic differences between Finland and Finns (even today) are pretty huge .... bigger than for example genetic differences among of Swedes (South Sweden vs North Sweden).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

    Just copied two parts from that ...

    ''Variation within Finns is, according to fixation index (FST) values, greater than anywhere else in Europe. Greatest intra-Finnish FST distance is found about 60, greatest intra-Swedish FST distance about 25.[59][60] FST distances between for example Germans, French and Hungarians is only 10, and between Estonians, Russians and Poles it is also 10.''

    '' The closest genetic relatives for Finns are Estonians (FST to Helsinki 40 and to Kuusamo 90) and Swedes (FST to Helsinki 50 and to Kuusamo 100).''

    Some other ''interesting'' articles...
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/f...ir_own/6151334

    https://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...-europeans.htm

    https://www.getscience.com/disruptiv...ween-genes-and
    No, but the Finns were brought up.

    From a genetic standpoint, there are traditionally three types of Finns. Southwest Finns, Tavastians (Häme) and East Finns. The SW Finns used to be classified as more Nordid and long-skulled, whereas the Tavastians were East Finns with some Swedish blood.

    For example - as will be shown below -, the Finns in the counties where the Häme dialect is spoken (i.e. the counties of Häme, Vaasa and Uusimaa) have received a larger proportion of their genes from a western source than have the Finns in the counties to the east of them. The frequency figures have therefore been lumped together into four main linguistic-genetic groups: 1) The Finland-Swedes, 2) the South-West-Finns (of the county of Turku and Pori), 3) the Häme-Finns and 4) the East-Finns. (Genetic differences between counties within each group appear to be mainly accidental and do not reflect differences in the proportions of distinguishable genetic components.)

    Figure 1 shows the genetic distances between four of the race groups concerned (Finland-Swedes, Häme-Finns, East-Finns and a sample group of Estonians) graphically. It appears that the Häme-Finns are not far from being a perfect match to a mixed breed between Finland-Swedes and East-Finns. However, there are reasons to suspect that the latter two groups are both of mixed breeding themselves; they may even have been compounded later than the Häme-Finns.

    Since the East-Finns obviously have less of the Swedish component than the Häme-Finns and the Finland-Swedes, one would expect them to be very close to their linguistic relatives, the Estonians. But astonishingly enough, the genetic distance between the Estonians and the East-Finns is the longest of all.
    The genetic composition of the main race groups in Finland, C.Nordling, 1993

    Fig. 5 (3 views). A Finn from Tampere, Tavastehus. This man seems to show more evidence of Nordic influence than the others. As these pictures show, the East Baltic is not a stable or a basic racial type, but a variable blend.

    The Races of Europe, C.Coon, 1939, East Baltics

    SW Finnish Eurogenes K13 test:

    # Population........Percent
    1 Baltic...............43.01
    2 North_Atlantic...35.66
    3 West_Med.........8.15
    4 Siberian............6.14
    5 West_Asian........3.15
    6 South_Asian......1.79

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Southwest_Finnish @ 4.031757
    2 Finnish @ 6.453749
    3 Estonian @ 8.772031
    4 East_Finnish @ 9.488614
    5 Polish @ 9.580767
    6 South_Polish @ 10.313795
    7 Belorussian @ 11.277782
    8 North_Swedish @ 11.636842
    9 Russian_Smolensk @ 11.641303
    10 Ukrainian @ 11.706934

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    No, but the Finns were brought up.
    Well, if anything in the world ... then arrogant imperious Swede ... one who looks Finns down openly .... will get Finns bloods boiling . I bet some Swedish hockey players etc. have used that trick .... LOL.

    But seriously, Sweden could have much worse neighbor (no matter that Finns are time to time bit comic or weird). Good thing with them is: they really adore Germanic cultures (and Germans) opposite to many other non-Germanic Europeans. So there is no sense to make them angry (unnecessarily). That being said; it has been very clear for me (all the time) that my husband will not be Finn, but living in harmony with them ... side by side? Really possible and even pretty easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Well, if anything in the world ... then arrogant imperious Swede ... one who looks Finns down openly .... will get Finns bloods boiling . I bet some Swedish hockey players etc. have used that trick .... LOL.

    But seriously, Sweden could have much worse neighbor (no matter that Finns are time to time bit comic or weird). Good thing with them is: they really adore Germanic cultures (and Germans) opposite to many other non-Germanic Europeans. So there is no sense to make them angry (unnecessarily). That said; it has been very clear for me (all the time), that my husband will not be Finn, but living in harmony with them ... side by side? Really possible and even pretty easy.
    Yeah, well, perhaps I read too quickly sometimes, but I thought that you were the one who said that Finns didn't look much Nordic. I did not intend to make a hate speech against the Finns, but only intended to affirm what you said by commenting that they do differ somewhat racially from their Scandinavian neighbours. From that viewpoint alone, marrying a Pole or Spaniard would create less striking alteration than a Finn could. A minority of Swedes also have minor non-Caucasoid admixture for your information, but not as much as most Finns.

    I did my best to compile a list based on the Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet that attempts to measure how Caucasoid various European and also extra-European groups for comparison were. Tiny components were included for subtraction, so feel free to add 1-2% if you believe in the "everything under 2% is nose".

    North Italian (Europid) 99.20%
    Greek (Europid) 99.20%
    Armenian (Europid) 99.04%
    Georgian Jewish (Europid) 99.01%
    Austrian (Europid) 99.00%
    French (Europid) 98.78%
    German (Europid) 98.61%
    Dutch (Europid) 98.60%
    Southwest English (Europid) 98.55%
    Assyrian (Europid) 98.54%
    Southeast English (Europid) 98.50%
    Danish (Europid) 98.43%
    Georgian (Europid) 98.38%
    Lebanese_Christian (Europid) 98.30%
    Irish (Europid) 98.28%
    Norwegian (Europid) 98.28%
    Polish (Europid) 98.26%
    Serbian (Europid) 98.10%
    Spanish_Aragon (Europid) 98.04%
    Romanian (Europid) 97.97%
    Lithuanian (Europid) 97.94%
    Samaritan (Europid) 97.65%
    Swedish (Europid) 97.40%
    Spanish_Castilla_L (Europid) 97.37%
    Spanish_Cantabria (Europid) 97.33%
    South_Italian (Europid) 97.32%
    Hungarian (Europid) 97.26%
    Orcadian (Europid) 97.24%
    Spanish_Andalucia (Europid) 96.81%
    Sephardic Jewish (Europid) 96.74%
    Iranian (Europid) 96.46%
    Spanish_Castilla_Y (Europid) 96.19%
    Kalash (Europid) 96.04%
    Russian (Europid) 95.97%
    Lebanese_Muslim (Europid) 95.87%
    Ashkenazi (Europid) 95.84%
    Portuguese (Europid) 95.74%
    Saudi (Europid) 95.02%
    North Swedish (Europid) 94.58%
    Estonian (Europid) 94.48%
    Syrian (Europid) 94.16%
    Yemenite_Jewish (Europid) 93.59%
    Southwest_Finnish (Europid) 93.59%
    Turkish (Europid) 92.77%
    Palestinian (Europid) 92.65%
    Afghan_Pashtun (Europid) 92.26%
    North_Ossetian (Europid) 92.11%
    Finnish (Europid) 91.85%
    Kargopol Russian (Europid) 91.17%
    East_Finnish (Europid) 89.31%
    Egyptian (Europid) 81.93%
    Turkmen (Europid) 80.85%
    Moroccan (Europid) 79.10%
    Mozabite_Berber (Europid) 76.76%
    Chuvash (Europid) 73.14%
    Hazara (Europid) 52.10%

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    Finns are 10% Mongoloid and have a nearer relation to Tatars and Chuvash than to Scandinavians.
    Note that tests will define the "Siberian" component differently, depending on the reference source. 10% Siberian genetically doesn't mean 10% "Mongoloid" (that's a term from physical anthropology and doesn't make sense here, btw) or 10% East Asian-like in most tests because Siberian peoples are partly European-like genetically themselves.

    Overall Finns, despite their admixture, still cluster, by far, closest to other Europeans.

    See for example this recent study: Genes reveal traces of common recent demographic history for most of the Uralic-speaking populations


    [/URL]



    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    Yeah, well, perhaps I read too quickly sometimes, but I thought that you were the one who said that Finns didn't look much Nordic.
    Believe me; I know pretty well (here in Skadi) how Finns looks . More like ... I have even needed (or passive ways ''forced'') to do that ... someway naturally ... as developing my own identity). Sure you can find Nordid - Baltid (mix) looking Finns. More in West ... lesser in East or North.
    Like this couple:


    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    I did not intend to make a hate speech against the Finns, but only intended to affirm what you said by commenting that they do differ somewhat racially from their Scandinavian neighbours.
    Sure they differ ... even a lot. Just like they do against any other Europeans (not to talking about non Europeans). And as being so it is more like ... strange? or interesting? that they even look that much similar as Scandinavians? What can be said ... some of our genes are fully useless (looks wise ... anyway) and Finns probably shares some same genes with Scandinavians which really have some influences to their looks. Common environment and climate has played a role here => similar features have been a benefit to both.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    From that viewpoint alone, marrying a Pole or Spaniard would create less striking alteration than a Finn could.
    Probably ... maybe even Sicilian )? Possible kids would opposite look much different (my above comments) and culture shocks would be huge. None of that are still my type of tea/coffee (as I said).

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    A minority of Swedes also have minor non-Caucasoid admixture for your information, but not as much as most Finns.
    You know; there are still some Finno-Ugric populations in Russia ... Stalin did't kill all of them (some ... still closer to Volga river). Mare people for example. Many strange genes Finns have are same as Mare people have. On the other hand calling those people zero Europeans is someway comic ... even as they share very little common with Mediterranean people or caucasoid. It is all how things are written ...
    Haaranda -Torneå area ... the borderline in North (then Russia took Finland from Sweden after Great Northern War)... the border did't follow the line where people (ethnics) lived. Meänkieli (in Sweden) ... even today is good example of that (kieli FI = language EN). I even assume it has been so then my mom's Swedish ancestors arrived to Finland (16th century to 17th century) from Södermanland & Uppland (at least so among of them/those Swedes... who lived in east coast of Sweden).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Except Skåne and maybe Småland) .... my understanding is that today's Swedes have some Finnish blood (8% -13%)?
    I have a hard time believing that. Do you know of any studies or other references on the matter?
    A nation is an organic thing, historically defined.
    A wave of passionate energy which unites past, present and future generations

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