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Thread: FS' Christian Credentials (Schwab vs FS - thread split)

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    FS' Christian Credentials (Schwab vs FS - thread split)

    Putting aside all politics, do you still believe what the Bible teaches? Apparently not. In a recent comment, you don't want to leave the church because you want to get married in the Lutheran church. Isn't that hypocritical? You cannot have it both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    Putting aside all politics, do you still believe what the Bible teaches? Apparently not. In a recent comment, you don't want to leave the church because you want to get married in the Lutheran church. Isn't that hypocritical? You cannot have it both ways.
    I believe the moral parts. It gives good basics to our life. Nope, I said I have not seen reasons to resign from church (like many have done ... thank's to some morons comments (church)). Bit different thing.

    And LOL... you don't determinate what I can or can not have in my life. Leave that to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I believe the moral parts. It gives good basics to our life. Nope, I said I have not seen reasons to resign from church (like many have done ... thank's to some morons comments (church)). Bit different thing.

    And LOL... you don't determinate what I can or can not have in my life. Leave that to me.
    No, I'm not insinuating at all telling you what you can do or cannot have in your life.

    I'm trying to understand your rationale.
    I was raised Lutheran too before WW2. After WW2 the church was reorganized because Luther was an anti-Semite. The new denomination got a new name and called the reformed Protestant church. The basic tenants stayed the same.
    You cannot be a Lutheran and a Christian without believing in all the 10 commandments. The first one is the main one which you don't believe in. I have known many atheists and pagans that have high moral values and probably could teach some Christians a few lessons because they believe in the morality of the other nine commandments.
    Being a Christian means following God and the Scriptures. Too bad that this concept is disappearing. Many people tend to design their own beliefs which leads to hundreds of denominations.
    I left the organized church years ago and became nondenominational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    No, I'm not insinuating at all telling you what you can do or cannot have in your life.
    Bravo.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    I'm trying to understand your rationale.
    The challenger is that we share very little in common. Age, gender, you are American I'm European etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    I was raised Lutheran too before WW2. After WW2 the church was reorganized because Luther was an anti-Semite. The new denomination got a new name and called the reformed Protestant church. The basic tenants stayed the same.
    The same never happened here (in any bigger scale) but we were/are not same ways (as much) under Jews power/influence like USA and you Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    You cannot be a Lutheran and a Christian without believing in all the 10 commandments.
    Based on what? Officially? For sure I'm ... as that is I what I'll write into my official papers (or what reads there automatically ... marked by Church). You know my background here already. In the eyes of (your) God? Maybe not. Do you think I care?

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    The first one is the main one which you don't believe in.
    For your info ... I stopped to believe Santa Claus then I was 4 - 5 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    I have known many atheists and pagans that have high moral values and probably could teach some Christians a few lessons because they believe in the morality of the other nine commandments.
    Good for you. Now I would like to ask one question ... do you value those people? As high as your Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    Being a Christian means following God and the Scriptures.
    See my reply bit higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    Too bad that this concept is disappearing. Many people tend to design their own beliefs which leads to hundreds of denominations.
    I left the organized church years ago and became nondenominational.
    Oh, you don't belong any church now? Oh, well now mr ... many would call YOU exactly atheist or pagan here. Actually as you would fill up some papers (your personal information) ... would need to mark it like ... no matter how much you will/would believe your God in bottom of your heart and soul.

    Just like to add: Then you belong to Church (at least here) ... it is two sides highway. Meaning: if you are member of Lutheran Church ...then you are member of their local parish/congregation ... and then you can use their services ... like Church services on Sundays (surprise ... I don't), get married in Church, get buried in Church cemetery etc. Two ways? As a member of Church you will also need to pay Church tax/tithe. And now we come to matter why some people have resigned from Church here (especially the peaks at some years). Those people have felt that Church tax is too much/high versus what they'll get back (always after some individual moron comments from Church side). Yup ... those people simply will not want to pay that tax anymore. Resign from Church and you don't need to. Believe me; they have not done it so much because of their real ''believes''. And as I have said 2 times now ... I have not yet felt that way. But of course as I'm student ... I have never earned much annually either. So I have not needed to pay much of Church taxes either. Yet.

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    "..........Just like to add: Then you belong to Church (at least here) ... it is two sides highway. Meaning: if you are member of Lutheran Church ...then you are member of their local parish/congregation ... and then you can use their services ... like Church services on Sundays (surprise ... I don't), get married in Church, get buried in Church cemetery etc. Two ways? As a member of Church you will also need to pay Church tax/tithe. And now we come to matter why some people have resigned from Church here (especially the peaks at some years). Those people have felt that Church tax is too much/high versus what they'll get back (always after some individual moron comments from Church side). Yup ... those people simply will not want to pay that tax anymore. Resign from Church and you don't need to. Believe me; they have not done it so much because of their real ''believes''. And as I have said 2 times now ... I have not yet felt that way. But of course as I'm student ... I have never earned much annually either. So I have not needed to pay much of Church taxes either. Yet."

    Well tanks, You finally explained your rationale about being a Lutheran.
    For you it is just a club with freebees. And once you have to pay taxes you might leave the church.
    That is not what Christianity is all about.
    Case closed............

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    "..........Just like to add: Then you belong to Church (at least here) ... it is two sides highway. Meaning: if you are member of Lutheran Church ...then you are member of their local parish/congregation ... and then you can use their services ... like Church services on Sundays (surprise ... I don't), get married in Church, get buried in Church cemetery etc. Two ways? As a member of Church you will also need to pay Church tax/tithe. And now we come to matter why some people have resigned from Church here (especially the peaks at some years). Those people have felt that Church tax is too much/high versus what they'll get back (always after some individual moron comments from Church side). Yup ... those people simply will not want to pay that tax anymore. Resign from Church and you don't need to. Believe me; they have not done it so much because of their real ''believes''. And as I have said 2 times now ... I have not yet felt that way. But of course as I'm student ... I have never earned much annually either. So I have not needed to pay much of Church taxes either. Yet."

    Well tanks, You finally explained your rationale about being a Lutheran.
    For you it is just a club with freebees. And once you have to pay taxes you might leave the church.
    That is not what Christianity is all about.
    Case closed............
    Oh, I just said how it goes officially. Doesn't matter do you like it or.
    So yes ... I member of this:
    https://evl.fi/frontpage
    ... and have been that since about 3 - 3,5 months age to present day.

    I thought you would have known that ... non Lutheran.

    Me? I might and I might not... most likely not ... as I have said ... the traditions means something to me.

    You don't define anything mister (so called common truths or what is right and what is wrong). You are master of your own life. Only! Not others. You have rights to have your opinions (like anybody else incl. me) but keep those as yours opinions ... and nothing else.

    Yes; case closed. Pretty much so.

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    Is this a private dispute or can we all join in?

    Not wishing to sit on the fence so I'm going with schwab on this one. The Church is not something to be used for your own personal convenience.

    I had a Church wedding based on the fact that my wife is a Methodist and her mum was the warden at the local Methodist Church, but otherwise I don't think I'd have had the gall to use the premises for a 'one-off' occasion with no intention of ever returning (..until my funeral). It would have seemed hypocritical to do so.

    Still, I'm sure that all denominations are fully aware of this issue and don't shun the cash of non-believers when it's offered

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    I did not understand FS's rationale of being a Lutheran. So she finally came on explaining it. It really was not a dispute. It was about clarification of what it means being a Lutheran in her mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    Putting aside all politics, do you still believe what the Bible teaches? Apparently not. In a recent comment, you don't want to leave the church because you want to get married in the Lutheran church. Isn't that hypocritical? You cannot have it both ways.
    Historically, the Church established its role in the various European cultures partly through coercion, threats, intimidation and mass-killings. Either from the power structures within the country itself, or from outside forces. Dissenting traditions, religions and cultural practices were either swept away or incorporated in the local form of Christianity. By the late Medieval Age, there was no voluntary membership of the Church. A lot of Europeans joined the new religion out of their own will, but a great deal did not, and either paid with their life or joined in order to survive. If these people wanted to get married, they had to go through the Church. And so it was for over a thousand years, regardless of their personal devotion to Christ or the Bible. The churches our ancestors got married in, baptized their children in, and eventually got buried around ... they bear a great deal of importance to non-Christians as well. It's a part of our traditions and history, and our bond to those who came before us. There's no hypocrisy in wanting to uphold a connection to that.

    Another point worthy of note, is that many of the Christian churches in Europe were built on top of the ruins of razed Heathen temples and holy sites. If the Christian Church didn't want to be associated with non-believers, then historically, they've made a lot of wrong turns over the years. We'll just have to learn to live with that.
    A nation is an organic thing, historically defined.
    A wave of passionate energy which unites past, present and future generations

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    The biggest failure of Christianity early on was not keeping the greatest commandment:

    "Love your neighbor as yourself".

    Christianity like many other religions got and get trapped in Politics. Religion and politics do not mix.

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