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Thread: Dayton & El Paso Mass Shootings

  1. #41
    Senior Member Herr Rentz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    "Regulated, in the context of the Amendment, means well equipped, trained, and/or supplied. It does not mean a regulatory body oversees the citizen militia."

    So without any oversight some subversive left wing militia could go into any action for one reason or another..............I don't get it.
    There was no standing army at the time. Citizens were called on to help defend the colonies.

    And yes, some political left-wing group could try a coup or uprising. That's the price we pay for freedom in this country. You've been here long enough that you should know that.
    American by birth, made of parts from Emmingen, Baden-Württemberg.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Þoreiðar View Post
    American politics seems to be split more or less in the middle on the issue of gun control. I don't think it would be difficult for either proponents or opponents of more gun control to initiate studies.
    Now shortly skip your own personal opinion outside (what ever that will be) ... and for politicians? ... being (at least officially) ''in middle''? ... in topics like this? ... is not very rare, is it? Nope, it is more like rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Þoreiðar View Post
    I believe the crux of the problem is that the people who commit these atrocities, no longer feel any connection to the society they are supposed to be a part of. Alienation, isolation and estrangement can be powerful influences on the human psyche. A person who feels truly at home and comfortable in his or her community, will not plot for its destruction, nor is it likely that they would "fall through the cracks" and turn into a complete psycho without people in their vicinity picking up on it and being able to help. I think there's a good reason why these sorts of acts were virtually unheard of (save for the mass-slaughters committed in war or by tyrannical governments) prior to WW2, and seriously gaining traction in the 80s.
    Do you also believe that person can tumble into outside of society (so to say) easier in countries like USA (a hard capitalist country) vs for example in Sweden?

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    Gareth

    Do you think that films (''cowboys'') have come more realistic (and less ''romantic'') as time has past?

    1953


    1985
    '

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Gareth

    Do you think that films (''cowboys'') have come more realistic (and less ''romantic'') as time has past?

    1953


    1985
    '
    I know you asked Gareth, but I will give you a answer. I do not think films being more high tech and graphic are any more realistic or less romantic in fact in the case of Western movies I think the newer ones are more romantic with the realism.

    Edit- You must be a close study of the Western genre to have picked such similar scenes out of all that is available on the net.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    Edit- You must be a close study of the Western genre to have picked such similar scenes out of all that is available on the net.
    For your info:

    Years ago ... my dad built a home theater in one room of our house. We have a big screen, lots of speakers, a video projector ... he even bought 5 old cinema sets from one cinema (which renewed theirs). He has lots of films in DVD, BlueRay. Including westerns.

    And that has been good. The closest real cinema is pretty far

    So, I might be ''uncivilized'' as living in rural areas (not knowing the latest fashions, hits etc.), but never still underestimate me. LOL. We are clever people here, and we'll find our ways to know about matters.

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  11. #46
    Senior Member Coillearnach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post

    As for the American Civil War 2.0 scenarios people are discussing: as soon as it starts the government loses - that's the opinion of the experts and the U.S. military. Another civil war would be radically different from the first and it's estimated over 60% of the army would desert if the Democrats ruled the U.S., and over 20% is the G.O.P. is in power.
    Where are you getting this data and is that only pertaining to a GOP vs Democrat scenario?

    The government will be only one player, there would be hundreds of active militias fighting amongst each other and against the govt. - many sides will have NBC-weapons. All it takes is the defection of a single commander of a submarine carrying nuclear weapons to one of the belligerents and the govt. won't have the monopoly on nukes anymore - and that also means that it's possible to force the govt. to make peace and secede land by nuclear blackmailing, just because of the possibility of a nuclear exchange.
    All tactical nuclear weapons have things called permissive action links, basically remote initiation locks, that prevent unauthorized use like that. No one on that ship could arm any of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreidar
    Regarding chemical weapons; it isn't impossible for civilians to make themselves. All it takes is some proper laboratory equipment and a decent knowledge of chemistry. Although it would probably be difficult to efficiently mass-produce to the same degree a government would be capable of.

    And civilians can also take part in biological warfare. Poisoning water-sources, for example, or purposely infecting livestock with diseases.
    Sure, a private force could do rudimentary forms of those things, but they don't have mass production abilities, advanced delivery systems, stockpiles, or the time/money to even attempt them realistically.

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    Senior Member Coillearnach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Perhaps so. I more wonder how seriously that subject has even been studied (as it would be like suicide mission to any politician in USA).
    The problem is that average people, politicians, and judicial actors either do not agree on the veracity of available facts/aren't interested in overcoming their own ideological biases or have irreconcilable interpretations of the 2nd Amendment. My country is very troubled, lol.

    On the other hand I think we can (or could) find pretty easily pretty good correlation between countries where numbers of guns are high (per people) and where numbers of gun shootings/killings are high. We can always discuss about the reasons, but that's how it goes.
    This kind of goes back to what I was saying before - you can make a correlation between a country having a lot of guns and corresponding gun crime (this is what gun control advocates at home and abroad lean on), plenty of data is there, but there is no conclusive correlation to be had between gun availability actually affecting the rate of violent crime - meaning, we don't know if the availability of guns actually causes crazies to kill more people than they normally would have or if those crazies are going to kill a lot of people anyway and just use guns because it is the path of least resistance. It's not enough in my country to simply say that if guns are around, more people will shoot other people therefore let's get rid of them because of our Bill of Rights, it's part of what separates us from many European countries.

    Sure ... but making bombs will take bit more time and will need bit more efforts than shooting loaded gun. Best would be to try to take those ''time bomb'' persons charge of (= out of street) before they will do anything. I know it is not easy. Without healthy care system (or any kind of ''control'') ... that just is like mission impossible.
    That's true but taking a lorry and mowing some people down on the sidewalk doesn't take any time and maybe no money at all. Honestly, it would probably be cheaper for most domestic terrorists to do this now but I imagine they don't because there is a lot of romanticism around firearms in American culture.

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  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coillearnach View Post
    Where are you getting this data and does is that only pertaining to a GOP vs Democrat scenario?
    A YT channel (see below) which talks about the political polarization in the U.S. It pertains to all scenarios involving a clash between the right and the left. The channel cited a former govt. planner. I've read about similar studies and remarks of officials throughout the years.

    The government would only be able to hold on to some of the major cities if there was a civil war, especially in the case of a rightwing rebellion. The left would effectively starve in urban democratic strongholds as they won't control either the countryside nor the roads to transport food. And in the case of a rightwing rebellion the military would cease to exist as an institute.

    The alt-right alone consists of 10.000.000 plus people and they would only form a fraction of the rebels. Meanwhile, the govt. can initially mobilize only 100.000s of soldiers and cops and it would take a while to create cohesive units given the mass desertions. Theoretically, the U.S. has 2 million soldiers (2/3 voted for Trump), but seventy five percent (it's even more than sixty, I looked it up again) would rebel and many are stationed around the world and can't begin to affect the situation in the States. And if they're brought home, over half of them will desert too. Meanwhile, there are 20.000.000 former soldiers in the U.S., most voted for Trump - and they can train the militias. All in all there would be 50-60 million armed Trump voters. The combat power of the govt. is dwarfed by the right. I don't even think of the govt. as a relevant factor anymore as soon as civil war breaks out, they would simply be reduced to representing the single biggest militia. There are also 650.000 cops in the states, but again, same scenario here: after defections (which would be less than military desertions, as police loyalties are more balanced), what will remain of the police? 25% to 50% of members of three letter agencies would defect as well. And rest assured the Russians and/or Chinese would support a rebel faction to make the U.S. fall apart.

    If you're interested in this subject, watch this C'nach, it mentions all these data I gave you - at the 52:24 mark it brings up the 75% defecting soldiers. As the video points out: the left likes to think that in a case of civil war the army would fight for them against rightwing militias, but that's a mistake.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coillearnach
    All tactical nuclear weapons have things called permissive action links, basically remote initiation locks, that prevent unauthorized use like that. No one on that ship could arm any of it.
    It's true that a submarine commander (or pilot) can't launch his nuclear missiles without launching codes, but the main thing is that the nukes can be brought to a harbor or airport. The party with such a commander (or pilot) on their side can figure out how to launch them with a different system later on. This problem can be circumvented.
    “Remember that all worlds draw to an end and that noble death is a treasure which no-one is too poor to buy.” - C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coillearnach View Post
    That's true but taking a lorry and mowing some people down on the sidewalk doesn't take any time and maybe no money at all. Honestly, it would probably be cheaper for most domestic terrorists to do this now but I imagine they don't because there is a lot of romanticism around firearms in American culture.
    For terrorists? Absolutely.

    For some drug addict etc. unemployed criminals who decide to steal small shop's founds (no matter if there are few third persons inside) ... not so much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    For terrorists? Absolutely.

    For some drug addict etc. unemployed criminals who decide to steal small shop's founds (no matter if there are few third persons inside) ... not so much?

    I know there were some studies done in the 70s regarding the role of weapon choice in the outcome of violent crimes (specifically aggravated assault, murder, and robbery) and one of the aggravated assault studies found that if the assailant had a gun over say a knife, the fatality rate of an attacked victim rose by something like 10%, but that weapon choice didn't affect the overall rate of those crimes.

    Most mass killings are not public shootings, it's only like 12%, they are either familicides or felony-related killings (gangs, robberies).

    So, yeah, it could bring down the fatality rate of felony-related crimes & familicide some if we were to get rid of guns (though I don't know how much with the gang-related stuff since they probably get their guns through illegal channels to begin with), but at the expense of punishing and possibly harming the safety of responsible gun owners by interfering with self defense and violating the 2nd Amendment. Doubtful it would do anything at all for the public shooting phenomenon because those are premeditated, unlike most murders, and the killers could just change weapons.

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