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Thread: The Gods Don't Care About Skin Color, According To...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    There are some who believe that God created man in his own image and others who believe that men created gods in their own image.
    In case of the former 'man' is generally understood as 'humanity'. In the case of the latter it is a conception that is not rooted in religious conviction; on the contrary it is a critique of religion.

    Of course this distinction can be nuanced. One can argue that the story of creation (being written down in times when we didn't have access to many of the world's human beings) does not concern the entire human species. The early Europeans in the America's tried this and so did Liebenfels. One might also revaluate our conception of the divine on the basis of the factually diverse depictions of Gods by different tribes. This is what Greek philosophers did.
    But, in the case of paganism, these nuances are made outside of the religious tradition, since all we know about this tradition is handed down to us by historical sources and not a lively, continuous religious tradition. So any attempt to turn Germanic paganism into a religion of ethnic exclusivity is therefore neo-pagan. It relies on a dogma that is alien to the original tradition of paganism (as far as the sources can tell us).

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    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Terror View Post
    If you want non-Indo-European deities, we have the Egyptian cult of Isis which was widely popular with the common people of Rome far beyond Egypt.
    Isis = Ishtar, it's indeed an indo-European deity.
    Egypt, back then, wasnt an "African" (North-African ethnicity) region.

    We also have the adoption of the worship of the Semitic deity Elagabalus (El ha-Gabal), which reached it's peak under the Emperor of the same name, though he earned ire for attempting to put his deity on the top of the pantheon.
    Ah, of course he earned ire. Because the Romans didnt like their core pantheon to be corrupted.

    Elagabalus (Marcus Aurelius), barely 14 years old, became emperor, initiating a reign remembered mainly for sex scandals and religious controversy.

    Later historians suggest Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He replaced the traditional head of the Roman pantheon, Jupiter, with the deity Elagabalus, of whom he had been high priest. He forced leading members of Rome's government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, over which he personally presided. Elagabalus was supposedly "married" as many as five times, lavishing favours on male courtiers popularly thought to have been his lovers,[3][4] and was reported to have prostituted himself in the imperial palace. His behavior estranged the Praetorian Guard, the Senate, and the common people alike. Amidst growing opposition, Elagabalus, just 18 years old, was assassinated and replaced by his cousin Severus Alexander on 11 March 222, who ruled for 13 years before his own assassination, which marked the epoch event for the Crisis of the Third Century. The assassination plot against Elagabalus was devised by his grandmother, Julia Maesa, and carried out by disaffected members of the Praetorian Guard.
    Certainly an example to follow...not. Besides, you ignore that this guy was not an ethnic Roman, but a Syrian/Semite, and his disregard for the Roman religion might have something to do with his ethnic background. It was also widely rejected and not "adopted" by Romans.

    We have the Romans and earlier Hellenistic Greeks invoking prayers to the Jewish god in papyri.
    Hellas Greece was Jew-infected and infested from at least 400 BCE. Just because these people wrote Greek doesnt make them Greek.
    Plus the detail that, despite Rome being the empire, it was Greek that was the Lingua Franca of that time, at least in the entire mediterranean area. So it's no surprise.

    This, btw, is also a detail "christians" like to ignore. Just because the gospels were written in Greek doesnt make the authors Greek, or European. They were Semites, they preached the Jewish religion and promoted the (very political) concept of a "messiah" (essentially the rebel against Roman occupation, loaded with religious symbolism, and reinvented as a "religion for the gentiles" only in the 2d century). Another detail that is conveniently ignored in this context can be read here. It wasnt exactly "Romans" who "adopted" the Jewish "christian" religion, it was Semites who had taken over the empire.


    And of course there is the Cult of Mithras that was so widely popular among soldiers, or Cybele, a national goddess of Rome that was adopted from the Phrygians, who in turn adopted it from Mesopotamians.
    All of them Indo-European peoples who "adopted" gods and cults of other Indo-European peoples.

    The Romans did not have a policy of 'respect', they had a tradition of subjugation, they took gods from conquered people to redirect their blessings to the Roman state. It's not respect, it's conquest.
    Of course it's conquest. But religion is the greatest barrier to overcome, and the Romans were wise enough to NOT impose their religion on the conquered people.


    You're also aware that Rome was a multiracial society, right? Several emperors were of Semitic (Septimus Severus, Elagabalus, Philip the Arab), or North African (Severus, Caracalla, Geta). Yet all were very much Romans and practiced Roman religion, despite not being Indo-Europeans.
    As we saw above, they did not practice Roman religion, in fact, they tried to do away with Roman religion and replace it with their own, Semitic cults. Unfortunately, they succeeded in the 4th century CE and made a Semitic cult "state religion". In the wake of this, Roman culture, cult places, temples and everything was trashed and destroyed. Consequently, the Roman empire ceased to exist in 476CE, because now it lacked the cultural foundation on which it was built.

    And the second lession we learn from the Roman empire is that multiracial societies don't work. All the "great" empires of history folded under the weight of burden of having allowed themselves to become multiracial empires. None of them survived a millenia. Except, of course, the Chinese empire, which from its foundation onward built walls to keep other races out. And so it survived for 3,000 years.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    Quote Originally Posted by luminous terror View Post
    i don't get the idea of supernatural nonhuman beings having some concern with the ancestry of their worshipers. Why would they care?

    Or are you saying that they're not real and you just made them up to have white gods?
    Do you "get the idea" of a parent caring for his own children more than some alien trash that invade their homelands and try to supplant them, murder them, rape them, and tell them they are not special to themselves in any way?

    If not, you have a lot to learn.
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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  5. #34
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    Have you ever thought? Heaven must be the ultimate "multicultural society"

    Hopefully I'll make Valhalla but I'd probably settle for Hel to escape this in the afterlife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    Have you ever thought? Heaven must be the ultimate "multicultural society"

    Hopefully I'll make Valhalla but I'd probably settle for Hel to escape this in the afterlife.
    Hel or Hell? The Hell, as opposed to Heaven, seems as much "multicultural".

    Hel doesn't sound too appealing to me either.

    See you in Valhalla, maybe?

    Or... who knows what's really there after we leave this physical world?
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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    I meant the Hel of Norse legend which is nowhere near as bad as the Christian one!

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    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    Or... who knows what's really there after we leave this physical world?
    According to lore, there is Valhalla for half the slain on the battlefield, the other half goes to Folkwang (Freyja's realm), which wasnt limited to the slain though, and for the rest there's Hel (with one l), which isnt the worst of places. It appears a bit similar to the Greek Elysion (although this got more of a "paradise" flavour, which it isnt/originally wasnt), simply the realm of the dead souls, Hel/Hades the Underworld.

    Not sure whether the idea of "Nifelhel" (like Tartarus a place of punishment) is an original Heathen concept or maybe an import idea.

    But indeed I expect in all three variants to meet considerably less racial foreigners than in the real world^^
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    According to lore, there is Valhalla for half the slain on the battlefield, the other half goes to Folkwang (Freyja's realm), which wasnt limited to the slain though, and for the rest there's Hel (with one l), which isnt the worst of places. It appears a bit similar to the Greek Elysion (although this got more of a "paradise" flavour, which it isnt/originally wasnt), simply the realm of the dead souls, Hel/Hades the Underworld.

    Not sure whether the idea of "Nifelhel" (like Tartarus a place of punishment) is an original Heathen concept or maybe an import idea.

    But indeed I expect in all three variants to meet considerably less racial foreigners than in the real world^^
    Of course an older was probably that one would reunite with their ancestors after dead (which for us would also include the relatively recent Christian one's). Something that is hinted at in the story of Redbad's near baptism. Alto in relation with Niflheim, who could point to the so called bogbodies, that could be seen as people who committed crimes so worse that they where symbolically banished out of the company of the honorable ancestors after their execution by trowing them in the swamps (that where seen as representing Utgard). So interpreted in that way one could argue that the Scandinavian Niflheim concept was a later development of it.
    The sense of honor is of so fine and delicate a nature that
    it is only to be met with in minds which are naturally noble or
    cultivated by good examples and a refined education.
    - Sir Richard Steele

  11. #39
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Of course an older was probably that one would reunite with their ancestors after dead
    Indeed. The word "Underworld" did not have a negative connotation, it was just the realm of the dead.

    Alto in relation with Niflheim, who could point to the so called bogbodies, that could be seen as people who committed crimes so worse that they where symbolically banished out of the company of the honorable ancestors after their execution by trowing them in the swamps (that where seen as representing Utgard). So interpreted in that way one could argue that the Scandinavian Niflheim concept was a later development of it.
    Imho this is not what the bog mummies really are. They have suffered an overkill death and were bound to their bodies by forever preserving them in the bog (the usual funeral was burning, releasing the soul from the body), which the people were well aware of that a bog mummifies the body. Tooth isotope testing showed that many of these people (mummies) have travelled long ways prior to their death and often stayed long enough in one region to left enough isotope markers (which doesnt happen in short time, rather months) so that their sometimes years-long travel can be observed. They also appear to have not done any or much physical work. Clothes were made of fine wool woven into patterns. This is not the life of criminals, this is the life of priests and priestesses.

    I dont think that their death was a punishment, but their mummies were supposed to serve a purpose, that is, seers to be called up.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Isis = Ishtar, it's indeed an indo-European deity.
    Good lord that made me nearly cry from laughter. This is not a good foot to start on, and I don't know what's funnier, that you think that Isis is the same as Ishtar, or that you think Ishtar, a Sumerian goddess, is Indo-European. On what basis do you assert this?

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Egypt, back then, wasnt an "African" (North-African ethnicity) region.
    Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Ah, of course he earned ire. Because the Romans didnt like their core pantheon to be corrupted.

    Certainly an example to follow...not. Besides, you ignore that this guy was not an ethnic Roman, but a Syrian/Semite, and his disregard for the Roman religion might have something to do with his ethnic background. It was also widely rejected and not "adopted" by Romans.
    You probably also believe all the propaganda written about Caligula too
    We have shrines to the god in Germania and Gaul predating the reign of Elagabalus, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Hellas Greece was Jew-infected and infested from at least 400 BCE. Just because these people wrote Greek doesnt make them Greek.
    Plus the detail that, despite Rome being the empire, it was Greek that was the Lingua Franca of that time, at least in the entire mediterranean area. So it's no surprise.
    Except we also have Jewish writers complaining about Greeks corrupting the worship of their god by mixing it with their own, and we have Romans saying that the Jews do not honor "Iovis Sabazios" properly. And of course there were the Hypsistarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    All of them Indo-European peoples who "adopted" gods and cults of other Indo-European peoples.
    Once again you claim a Sumerian goddess as Indo-European. Do you know the origins of Cybele at all? And Mithras has no root in Proto-Indo-European mythology, he's a wholecloth creation of Zoroastrian ethics to personify truth. And I assure you, the Romans saw the Persians as very alien.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Of course it's conquest. But religion is the greatest barrier to overcome, and the Romans were wise enough to NOT impose their religion on the conquered people.
    Hmmm yeah they did

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    As we saw above, they did not practice Roman religion, in fact, they tried to do away with Roman religion and replace it with their own Semitic cults.
    Hmm, again extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Elagabalus was a priest who tried to elevate his deity, not replace the entire religion. And on what basis can you make that Septimus Severus, Caracala (who was half Gaulish, btw), Geta, and Philip the Arab tried to "replace the religion"?

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And the second lession we learn from the Roman empire is that multiracial societies don't work. All the "great" empires of history folded under the weight of burden of having allowed themselves to become multiracial empires. None of them survived a millenia. Except, of course, the Chinese empire, which from its foundation onward built walls to keep other races out. And so it survived for 3,000 years.
    Given how much youve proved yourself to be a profoundly uneducated person, I'm not surprised you reduce the fall of Western Rome to simplistic answers. The fact that Rome continued on in the east for another thousand years, and fell largely as a consequence of bad rulership and a backwards mindset that caused them to fall behind the west and the muslim world, as well as betrayal by the Crusaders, renders your claim pretty moot.

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