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Thread: A Summary of Cathar Belief

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    The Cathars beliefs were blasphemous. Not to mention with their beliefs gnostic beliefs meant you could never trust one. As nothing here on this plane is of any importance. They believed in female equality something directly contradicted by the Bible and free sex something else contradicted by the Bible. They sound more like a feminist cult than anything else.
    Then theres the issue of the material world being of no importance and wanting to leave it as soon as possible. Theres so much wrong there and so much potential for disaster I don't know where to start. Frankly I couldn't imagine why the church wouldn't want to be rid of these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astragoth View Post
    Then theres the issue of the material world being of no importance and wanting to leave it as soon as possible. Theres so much wrong there and so much potential for disaster I don't know where to start. Frankly I couldn't imagine why the church wouldn't want to be rid of these people.
    Although I feel a sense of pity for the fate of the Cathars, I'd also have to agree with that. From what I gather, they were more or less completely pacifistic. Europe would never have survived the encroachment of the people surrounding our continent had the Cathars gained serious traction in European culture.
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    They believed in female equality something directly contradicted by the Bible and free sex something else contradicted by the Bible. They sound more like a feminist cult than anything else.
    Astra, you're just looking for stuff on the www that you can distort.

    Just because there was no bar on women becoming Perfects this doesn't make them a 'feminist cult'.

    Nor did they advocate 'free sex' (in anything like a 21st century sense) but - unlike the Catholics - they had no objections to non-procreative sex.

    Even today, the Catholic Church is still against non-procreative sex with all of the problems that this entails. The Cathars were far more enlightened in this respect.

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    Montaillou

    Montaillou: Cathars and Catholics in a French Village 1294-1324





    The village of Montaillou was the last stronghold of the cult of Catharism in medieval France. Under the Inquisition of Bishop Fournier, members of this sect were persecuted and some burnt at the stake, and the interrogations about the way they lived were chronicled in a Register. From this document Ladurie has reconstructed an intriguing account of everyday peasant life in a medieval village. "Montaillou" gives us a glimpse into how people really lived 700 years ago: from their homes and the food they ate, to their body language and attitudes to sex.

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    Senior Member Ravenrune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Although I feel a sense of pity for the fate of the Cathars, I'd also have to agree with that. From what I gather, they were more or less completely pacifistic. Europe would never have survived the encroachment of the people surrounding our continent had the Cathars gained serious traction in European culture.

    I think these kinds of beliefs and ideas tend to be for serious pockets who generally want to leave normal human society. Some similar groups have created sanctuaries on top of high-cliff mountains to hopefully keep way from anyone getting to them. (this isn't even just true for Europe .. look at the political history of China and those mountain sanctuaries up at the top of steep cliffs ... who's going to go up after you to make you fight in some false political war when they can't reach you)

    I think there is a huge difference between this idea and people or religions which still have one foot inside this physical world.


    Their whole idea is that this physical world and all it's political issues and confrontations is *THE* problem of this physical world and they see no way to be part of it so want out.


    At this epoch of the human situation, I see no way that this could be considered normal ..... perhaps it is too Utopian to be practical for the masses at this stage in time.


    --------------------


    I'm not a Christian so I guess my ideas do not conform to that. However, I think Christianity as a religion that was officially developed by humans over a few centuries was distorted and is not based fully on Jesus (as basically a "yogi" or Buddha ). It was distorted to created another usual man-god religion like Heracles son of Zeus and an Earth woman. It's a template I feel bypasses everything that eastern religions have in full sight. In Christianity, they don't want anyone to claim they feel he same thing Jesus felt ... being One with the entire Universe .... they look down and at times burnt those people at the stake for heresy - the same way they tried to kill Jesus for saying the same thing!).



    Anyway, there are groups of people who realize this physical world is just too much of a problem ... they do not want to come back and hopefully all attachments to this place are cut when they die so they will not incarnate here again (maybe that seems selfish in a way).

    Of course there are the rare ones who could leave and never incarnate but chose to come back again (Bodhisattvas) .... in an attempt to help some people get closer to this leaving or to help create a better society that would help people get closer to this goal.


    I have read that Hitler was a Bodhisattva who attempted to change things for the ultimate better but basically was destroyed and vilified by the forces of materialistic and misguided modern powers.

    If you look at this world right now it is this : Banks pushing you to get into dept: Paying interest: Advertisers always telling you to buy buy buy this and that and get it on credit .... Universities with outrageously costly enrollment figures! No religious guidance at all... mass media full of temptation all around ... lies from politicians who get money, go to sex parties where they are recorded for blackmail purposes, ........... the list goes on and on! This is where we are in our political world (Trump, Bushes, Blair, Obama, Kerry, Trudeau, Macron, Mercel, Clintons (not to mention the tons of people with power behind the scenes nobody ever herd of of whom many are dual Israeli US citizens!) .... all these people are frauds working for a "higher" [ or should I say, a more "worldly powerful"] agenda! And there is a path of suspicious deaths and people like Epstein to provide their entertainment all around. Our world is completely fucked up! And all we hear is some new movie from Hollywood about those "evil Nazis" .. or some new lame video game where you kill the evil Nazi zombies with plan at world domination LOL ... what a bunch of BS!.... wow ... it's almost insane to see this - but to have nobody in your immediate world who sees this or understands this - it is like anyone who figures this out is meant to be confined into their own prison of thought - you can't say these things in normal interactions .... nobody wants to hear and nobody believes you and they think you're nutty if not dangerous!



    Now I can see why some groups who have heretical ideas just gather together and try to hide. I guess this is why some people become so distraught with this physical world, they want to escape it for good ... I can't blame them.


    If there is reincarnation as eastern religions (and even some old European religious ideas say) say , I can't imagine how incredible a Bodhisattva must be to decide not to leave here for good (ie, not be reincarnated) but to decide to actually come back in an attempt to help other humans get closer to leaving here.


    Sorry for the big long tirade ... I guess I felt like expressing my ideas .... something I don't feel I can do many places - er rather no place!

  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JtB
    Cathars weren't a part of the Church and could not 'legally' be heretics by Church law
    They were heretics by any Christian definition of the word heretic. In your first post you do mention some of the heresies they believed in (if they weren't Christian, then why be offended by the cross as a religious symbol because it's an instrument of God's torture if you don't believe in Christ, for instance?). The Cathars were former Catholics whom still considered themselves to be Christian and they still talked Christian subjects.

    The Cathar Prayer of the Lord is almost word for word the Catholic one - if you're not Christian you wouldn't recognise the difference. Fun fact: after the last parfaits had been executed the remaining faithful fled to remote mountain hamlets in the Pyrenees and Alpine region, decapitated and lost and unable to receive the consolamentum they were without guidance and pretty much doomed. Nonetheless, traces of their presence remained until the mid 20th century (!) - when a researcher stumbled upon an elderly woman in the Pyrenees who prayed the Cathar version of the Lord's Prayer, meaning that centuries of religious tradition had continued in this woman. How I would've loved asking her some questions - such as - "who instructed you?", "which other religious instruction did you receive?", "are there still more of your around or are you the last Cathar?" - that woman could've been a living medieval time capsule. But I fear it's likelier she and her family probably were the last of the Cathars and wouldn't haven't been able to tell us much more as in all likelihood they weren't theologians but shepherds and all they had was centuries old oral tradition, parts of it forgotten, other parts diluted with the passing of time. Nonetheless, it's utterly bewildering to think that there were still some Cathars left back in the forties and that they have never come out as Cathars, not even after the French Revolution - perhaps they simply didn't care, as is the case for the descendants of the old Orthodox living in the wilderness of Siberia to this day.

    The Albigensians remind me of the Druze, who also believe in reincarnation and clearly an earlier, older religion, but embraced Islam to survive in Islamic countries. And like with the Druze, one is only fully initiated in the secrets of the religion at a certain stage. The Cathars secretly believed that Christ had been married to St. Mary Magdalene and they condemned Christ for that. This story was a popular medieval legend/Christian lore in the Languedoc and made its way into their religion that way. But a believer would've only been informed of "Christ's secret life" upon becoming a parfait. The roots of the Albigensian religion are in the Orient and even predate Christianity, but when the religion came to Western Europe, it adapted a Catholic guise, or better put: it merged with Catholicism: more than that, there was never a non-Catholic catharism in the West, despite it being very well possible that the Druze and the Cathars may orginally come from the same religious tradition. The Cathars would've never been in direct dialogue with the earliest tradition though, Catharism presented itself as a Christian sect and that's what they were - albeit a heretical one.

    Oddly, Catharism emerged in the Rhineland and Flanders first, but never got very far in Northern Europe, in contrast with Italy and France.

    It's a good thing the Church crushed the Cathars, otherwise Western Europe may consist of impoverished societies like Nepal and Tibet. And the Albigensians were actively advocating the end of Europe and even the human species as they considered sex and life evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by JtB
    Hell: To the Cathars this world IS Hell, created by Satan and fundamentally corrupt. This does not mean, though, that Cathars adopted a 'woe is me' attitude. Quite the opposite occurred: as this was what we have to work with, why not make it better and not worse? As a result the Cathars built a remarkably open, inclusive, and vibrant society in their lands and in that sense have been regarded by historians- despite the persecution by the Church- as one of the bright spots in an otherwise pretty bleak Europe of the times. Essentially, they didn't get bogged down with moaning about how bad the world was- even though they knew it was corrupt- and instead sought to thumb their noses at Satan by not giving in to despair.
    Oh but they did adopt that attitude. They were anti-marriage, anti-sex and anti-children. The Cathars were the ultimate doomers (more so, because doomers aren't against these things in principle). And to actually make it to the parfait stage, which was required of all believers/"listeners" (as they were called), you had to be an extreme ascete. The demands placed upon the believer were so extreme and joyless most only became parfaits on their deathbed, so they could die in a state of grace, knowing how hard it would be not to give into temptation if they still had to live a full life. Also, any historian who portrays the middle ages as a bleak era can be safely ignored.

    I came across this comment on YouTube last week, entirely unrelated to the Cathars, but it reminded me of them as it sums up their beliefs quite nicely:



    As for the open, vibrant and inclusive society the Cathars lived in: well, that was just medieval Occitania, it was not the work of the Cathars but the Occitan Catholic majority. It's the Cathars who were accepted as outsiders, just like Jews were tolerated .... but there was one group which everyone discriminated against: the Cagots, the accursed race of untouchables. And I would think the Cathars discriminated as much against them as everyone else, but I doubt we're ever going to find historical references of this because it was so common and quite irrelevant at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JtB
    Sex: There were differing views on sex among Cathars.
    No, just one - and it was unfavorable. All temporal pleasure is sinful for Cathars. And all sex was potentially pro-creative sex back then and even if it had not been, they would've been against it. We're talking about people who consider all that is material evil, even our own bodies. And as an aside: contrary to popular belief in the modern day secular West, Catholicism never embraced such a position. The Church launched crusades over this issue, that's how important Rome thinks sex and the good life are.

    Quote Originally Posted by JtB
    As for the Cathars, it's entirely possible the Church played up the threat to Christianity posed by Catharism in order to justify its campaign against the 'Good Men'. After all, the Cathars had no armies and no power-charged bureaucracy to challenge the authority or influence of the Church- essentially, all the Cathars had was their personal examples of faith. (Indeed, when local nobles were approached by the Church for assistance, they basically told the Church to F off, that they had lived around Cathars for years and had seen them living nothing but good and honorable lives dedicated to God.)
    The Cathars did pose a huge threat to the Church, their heresy is considered by the Church to be the most dangerous of the ancient heresies, already existing in the first century AD. Them being against the Church was the reason for their existence. And their movement gained traction. But indeed, yes, let's not forget that the military force opposing the crusaders from up north was led by Catholics and the supreme commander was a Catholic. However, prior to the first crusade in Occitania the Church and the Albigensians were negotiating and may have arrived at a comprimise, as not all Cathars were equally radical in their beliefs. The moderates for example maintained that the good god would eventually triumph over the equally powerful Demiurg as opposed to good being forever locked in a cyclical struggle with evil without any force gaining the upper hand (which is what Cathars would normally believe). That is, until an outside, extemist Bogomil preacher from the Balkan arrived in Southern France and riled everyone up again. After that, there was no more talking.

    Quote Originally Posted by JtB
    The Inquisition, too, was created specifically to combat the spread of Cathar belief- but even some of those Inquisitors saw the merit in Catharism and joined them instead.
    Citation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JtB
    Jesus and the Resurrection: Cathars held that, as this world was evil by its very nature, God would not have sent his son into it. As such, Jesus could not have been divine and was considered to be just a man, but more enlightened than others. This being the case, upon his death there was no ‘resurrection’ of the flesh- only the escape of Jesus’ soul to the spiritual realm of God.
    They did believe there was something divine about Christ, just not His corpus. Instead they believed that God had merely taken on the guise of a human as opposed to be one of flesh and blood. Christ's human form was nothing but an illusion to them - since in their eyes all matter has to be evil. On the basis of that fact they didn't believe in the resurrection either. How can that which physically does not exist either die or be resurrected, they reasoned.

    All the modern day praise for of Cathars fits the anti-Christian tendencies of our own age, it's not necessarily warranted or historically correct - it exists for political consumption of the braindead masses who want a clean conscience and pat on the back for being degenerate wretches. The world we live in has a to make heroes out of anyone who was ever persecuted by the Church - even witches - it reveals a lot about the nature of our liberal democracies.

    And IMHO Cathars, Puritans and SJWs all go hand in hand and belong, as pointed out before in this thread, indeed to the same tradition which thank God the contrareformation delivered us from in Catholic Europe (until the last 50 years or so). Their message: beer is evil, sex is rape and evil, music is evil, acting is evil, Christmas is evil, power is evil, hierarchy is evil, the world is evil - and you have to point it all out, etc., etc. Yes, one has to admire the courage of conviction of the Cathars, but never forget they were a pansified and pacifist kind of taliban. If you don't like Christianity, you surely would have disliked Catharism.
    "After the year 1900 people will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society." - St. Nilus, 430 AD

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