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Thread: Debate: Table Talk authenticity

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    This theory is a bit offbeat but I sometimes wonder if the determination to subdue Hitler wasn't in part due to a fear of Paganism being (re)installed in a major European nation.

    Given Europe's troubling history of religious wars over the centuries the rise of neo-Paganism could have upset the precarious balance and, in time, become a huge problem.
    Fair enough, many of Hitler's adversaries were indeed strongly inundated with Christian sentiment. What's certain is that they feared Hitler's Germany would become a precedent for other nations to emulate. Again, this ties in with their usage of Hitlerism to mean any nation which sided with Hitler, at any time.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Yaxley View Post
    In case he deletes it, click this link that Astragoth posted and you will see that Weronika Kuzniar is his source:
    Oh I know about V. K. Clark (thanks for keeping the quote intact btw). She's deliberately misrepresented Hitler's Platterhof private hotel talks as a speech and got into disputes with Carolyn Yeager (who is arguably more reliable, despite her endearment for Trump. Not to mention she's a native German and had her suspicions about Carrier being Jewish).

    There actually used to be a video on Clark's YouTube channel where she praised Carrier as a "jewish scholar" (whether she meant she believed him to be Jewish or merely an expert on Judaism is unclear). The channel got taken down several months ago and the video hasn't been re-uploaded afaik.

    In both linked article and the aforementioned video, Clark condemned the table talks as worthless. Carrier likewise dismissed it as worthless (although in his case, he only meant the one with Trevor-Roper's introduction). This quote from Mein Kampf should be cited:

    One has good grounds to be suspicious in regard to any new idea, or any doctrine or philosophy, any political or economical movement, which tries to deny everything that the past has produced or to present it as inferior and worthless. Such an antipathy is usually due to a sense of inferiority or to malicious intention.

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    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    This theory is a bit offbeat but I sometimes wonder if the determination to subdue Hitler wasn't in part due to a fear of Paganism being (re)installed in a major European nation.

    Given Europe's troubling history of religious wars over the centuries the rise of neo-Paganism could have upset the precarious balance and, in time, become a huge problem.
    Absolutely.

    And adding some context to the whole topic. The Reichskonkordat, a deal struck between Hitler and the Vatican so that they dont claim "political" influence anymore and in turn were granted some kind of protection from the processes that otherwisely were set to fundamentally transform Germany's religious landscape. If we view Hitler as a politician, a statesman building a society, he wanted to avoid conflicts, and the catholics had a tradition of being troublemakers already in the Kaiserreich, specially in the Rhineland (once French-occupied, then Prussian-occupied, and they were pretty much fed up with being played), it would have been a desaster if Hitler or the NSDAP had rolled once more with proverbial tanks over them, so instead they were "pandered" to, at least in words. Many of the pro-christian statements should certainly be viewed with this situation in mind.

    The Reichskonkordat itself, however, was a problematic act, Ludendorff rightfully labeled it "The Treason of Hitler" (doc available on archive.org), because, while it superficially viewed secured some kind of social peace for the time being, it contained also the risk of spoiling the entire nationalsocialist revolution through "backdoors" with which the Vatican could sneak back in and hold an at least "blocking power" forever over Germany.

    On the other hand, IF Hitler had won the war somehow and continued the pressure on the Vatican, it could have opened the Vatican probably for a NS takeover, something which no Allied power, not Britain, not France, not the US, wanted, due to the influence the Vatican has over them (plus, that the Vatican is the NWO, which may or may not have been known to Allied leaders back then, but the upfront influence of the Vatican was enough to panic at such a possibility, so they'd of course jump in for the Vatican). Christians back then and today panic at a prospect of Paganism rising much more and much more violently than they do with endless streams of Musel immigrants for whom they happily fling open their borders, so most likely it doesnt even require "official" church bids to rile them up against the idea.

    Considering that about everything has been reversed what NS Germany achieved, it's a pretty fun fact that the Reichskonkordat to this day is a reality. In German territory of what is now Poland it enforces German-headed dioceses (interestingly, also goes for the evangelical churches), the Polish church-branch cant instate bishops. It's probably also due to the Reichskonkordat that in all international treaties (not that anyone would ever talk about it publicy) Germany is defined in terms of territory including Prussia. I believe that this territory question is the main reason why there is no peace treaty, the annexation of Prussia is for all intents and purposes illegal according to all international treaties that are otherwise abused to keep Germany down, and peace treaty talks would pull both details straight into the spotlight. When Kohl "recognised" the Oder-Neisse border in 1990 (luckily, his/all puppet-chancellors' "authority" regarding this was nonexistent, so it has no further legal consequences), it caused quite some panic because this topic of German territory is strictly a no-talk-about thing and it was quickly wiped back under the rug.

    Generally, knowing quite some Hitler speeches in their full original recordings, it's save to say that Hitler was not an overly religious man. He had his thoughts on the matter for sure, he had his upbringing in catholic Austria in mind, but imho he was not interested enough in religious matters to care beyond political goals and happily left this to other people, like Himmler. And what he had made if given time we all know. I also think that, while Hitler may or may not have been happy about the pagan flavour, he deeply admired the devotion Himmler had successfully generated within the SS and SA, and then beyond with the Solstice festivities into the people. Hitler hadnt granted Himmler basically unlimited resources either if he would have been against what he did. Hitler was the "warrior king", the politician, and Himmler the priest class. They did not question each other's place and role either, they were the perfect compliments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Generally, knowing quite some Hitler speeches in their full original recordings, it's save to say that Hitler was not an overly religious man. He had his thoughts on the matter for sure, he had his upbringing in catholic Austria in mind, but imho he was not interested enough in religious matters to care beyond political goals and happily left this to other people, like Himmler. And what he had made if given time we all know.
    I would beg to differ. There's several untranslated speeches where he insists that he was deeply religious/devout/pious, plus Goebbels wrote that "the Führer is deeply religious". In a 1935 letter to Viscount Rothermere, Hitler specifically identified the maxim "the gods love those who demand the impossible" with his religious belief. Apparently it's a German proverb but I suspect there might be some Greek influence behind it. It occurs in Mein Kampf and at least 2 speeches.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    I also think that, while Hitler may or may not have been happy about the pagan flavour, he deeply admired the devotion Himmler had successfully generated within the SS and SA, and then beyond with the Solstice festivities into the people.
    Hitler hadn't granted Himmler basically unlimited resources either if he would have been against what he did. Hitler was the "warrior king", the politician, and Himmler the priest class. They did not question each other's place and role either, they were the perfect compliments.
    I will grant this however. Even in Otto Wagener's memoirs, which is anything but pro-pagan, Hitler gave high marks to the Church Fathers for not abolishing Christmas, originally the sacred Nordic festival. Wagener's Hitler goes into great detail about the Solstice and the swastika.

    It's true that Himmler enjoyed a lot of breathing room in shaping the Waffen-SS and that Hitler identified himself strictly as a politician rather than religious reformer.

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    https://nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

    Martin Bormann served as the instigator, fuel, and reason for the perception of many Christians that Nazism was against Christianity.
    There were many agitators and radicals (i.e. Arthur Drews, Julius Evola) who have fallen into obscurity or were sidelined due to the sensationalist attention given to the "Nazi" higher-ups, Bormann was likely more moderate compared to them. It's interesting to read about Rudolf Hess' views on Bormann's alleged treachery (it's at the end of the penultimate chapter of Eugene K. Bird's book). Hess was in disbelief and found it "almost impossible". He pointed to Hitler's lasting confidence in Bormann as proof that no such suspicion arose or that it amounted to hearsay. It also seems like Hess was poisoned by Speer's account of Bormann while in prison.

    Many times, quotes attributed to Hitler are actually Bormann's.
    An unsubstantiated claim. Where did the article ever offer proof of this? There is only the implication that it was "well known that Bormann secretly worked against the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission."

    I only know of one instance where Bormann's interpolation is plainly indicated in Jochmann's version (July 11-12, 1941).

    It has been pointed out that "the fight against the church organizations" were Bormann's pet project. In spite of Bormann's repeated attempts to persuade Hitler to act against the Churches, Hitler insisted that "There has been no official Party announcement, nor will there be one." [VonLang, p.191]
    Context is important! Always factor in context. Curiously, I came across those two statements in the same place from a single search. I wouldn't be surprised if the author did the same. How terribly lazy if this were the case.

    Name:  bormann context.png
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    The first quote ascribes a motive to Bormann ("even though Bormann would have proceeded against him"), which demonstrates it's unreliability.

    Note how the second quote actually seems to represent Hitler as encouraging Bormann's policies! The author of nobeliefs.com deliberately misrepresents the statement by quoting it out of context.

    My current impression of nobeliefs.com is that it's an extremely superficial assessment of Hitler's movement. It doesn't even call into question the reliability of Otto Wagener's memoirs, but takes it for granted (confirmation bias). T.T. Hitler was consistently anti-Pauline (I think Rausching's Hitler was also anti-Pauline). Otto Wagener's Hitler is curiously pro-Pauline (from the German memoirs):

    1. Und Christus hat vielleicht als einer der ersten der liberalistischen Einstellung des Menschen die sozialistische gegenübergestellt. Aber seine Lehre, die wir noch bei Paulus und anderen rein und edel vorfinden, ist sehr bald verfälscht, ja umgekrempelt worden, und vom Christentum ist in den Kirchen, die sich heute seines Namens bedienen, nicht mehr viel übriggeblieben.

    2. Sonst genossen die Juden bei ihnen alle Freiheiten, Neger dagegen nur ganz ausnahmsweise dann, wenn sie sich durch besonders hervorragende Leistungen für das römische Imperium verdient gemacht hatten; Juden konnten sogar >römische Bürger< werden, wie wir im Falle Paulus sehen.

    3. Der Apostel Paulus erzählt selbst, daß er vorher Führer eines solchen Sondergerichtes war . . . So wurde er dann sogar selber ins Gefängnis geworfen und den römischen Kriegsknechten übergeben.
    Either way, what's certain is that Hitler regarded Paul's conversion narrative in Acts as credible. I would respectfully disagree that the conversion narrative is actually authentic, but I'll grant that the table talk representation of Hitler reinterpreting the conversion narrative fits in with his overall skepticism.

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    As a side note, Reinhard Heydrich was Catholic, though not a devout worshiping member after entering the SS. He was not a Pagan, thought it might have appeared so. This influence came from another (former) Catholic, Reichsführer Himmler.

    Reinhard would go along with whatever Himmler did or suggested. Heydrich's job was to rid the Reich of Jews. Anything else was on the back burner for him, including religion. Of any kind.
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