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Thread: (Thread Split) The Nature of Nations

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    Thumbs Up (Thread Split) The Nature of Nations

    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn ok Muninn View Post
    Thomas Jefferson was basically a limousine liberal. The country is what it is today because he was elevated to virtual godhood. Nations are NOT IDEAS, and to define them as such is Orwellian. IT.IS.A.LIE.

    Nations are extended families. We are bound by blood and blood alone. Every people outside "the west" knows this like they know the grass is green and the sky is blue, but we have been brainwashed by constant conditioning to believe it is not so.
    Consider me brainwashed then. Extended families are tribes. Nations transcend tribes exactly because nations are ideas. It is what makes us more than mere biological substance. There is nothing orwellian about this. Orwellian would be when power is sought for the sake of power. Yet power for the sake of an idea, that is nationalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    Consider me brainwashed then. Extended families are tribes. Nations transcend tribes exactly because nations are ideas. It is what makes us more than mere biological substance. There is nothing orwellian about this. Orwellian would be when power is sought for the sake of power. Yet power for the sake of an idea, that is nationalism.
    Well, you're absolutely wrong, and may be putting yourself in the wrong camp, as well. You should be cautious about adopting mindsets used by the enemy to dilute and destroy our people from within.

    The very word "nation" is taken from the Latin "natus," translated as "born," "destined by nature," "formed by nature," or "son." It is an organic thing, just as a tribe is. If you want to get technical about it, families and tribes are "ideas" as well, but there is something much more real and spiritual about them, as there is about a "nation," because all of these things are based upon a kinship of the soul. Surely this is a more honorable excuse for coming together than the ruling classes caring more about their power than they do the people they represent, and thus doing anything they can to increase the tax base, including putting women to work and bringing in alien peoples as an ad hoc working class, or worse yet, inviting "quality" immigrants to take our better jobs because our education system has rejected "fucking white males" in the name of "affirmative action."

    America cannot be called a "nation" anymore, since it gradually sold more and more of its soul to the cause of capitalism. "Ideas" based upon greed or a lust for power in the ruling classes might make an empire, but not a nation. Multicultural entities like the USA simply do not work, and this will be proven out. Our people simply feel no true kinship of the soul with blacks or mestizos or Jews or Arabs or Chinese people, and America will disintegrate just as the "idea" of Rome did... as the blood of the founding stock dissipated.
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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    Nations transcend tribes exactly because nations are ideas.
    I have to disagree with you here, Bernhard.

    The Commies tried to impose their ‘idea’ on Russia but they could only maintain it by brutal force. In WW2 the first thing Joe Stalin realised was that the Russian peasants would not fight and die for International Communism so he had to give his rhetoric a more blood and soil orientation, with talk of a 'Great Patriotic War' for 'Mother Russia'.

    His Marxist ideals were brushed aside almost overnight because you cannot build and maintain nations based solely on ideals - there are simply too many conflicting ones between all those different tribes you mention. I’m sure that the (((globalists))) controlling the West today already know that ‘multicultural societies' based on consumerism are doomed to failure and that is precisely why they've imposed this ideology on the native populations; to destroy us from within!

    Believe me, when the SHTF all of those tribes will flock towards their own kin, although I dare say that some brainwashed Westerners will still cling to the hope that their own egalitarian values (that no-one else shares!) will somehow prevail.

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    I don't see a contradiction here. Nations are certainly ideas and yet still can be comprised of blood relatives, this is part of the idea.

    I am not sure how I should take the meaning of the word transcend though. I would say nations are abstract families/tribes, they are governed by the same rules, since these are the only things humans evolved to comprehend instinctively.
    A working state, which can control his respective nation is currently the highest form of culture. Interestingly enough, most Westerners are taking this for granted, however, most countries in this world do not have it.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    If a nation is abstract, it's not a nation. Unlike countries or 67 gender identities nations can't be invented. There's either direct historical commonality between you and someone else or there isn't. We ourselves aren't abstractions and nations consist of us. We are who we are because of our ancestors: their genes, their culture, their language, their history. Nothing abstract about that at all, nothing elitist either, yet there's no shortage of pompous, self-aggrandizing people on the right who instead of sticking to conventional wisdom will go pseudo-intellectual on you and tell you an apple can be a banana too - usually the same crowd which fetisihizes all things Japanese, they're nearly all (radical) traditionalists or archeo-futurists of some flavor. Let's keep it simple - because otherwise you'll end up with historically important French or American notions about national identity and where they lead to should be obvious. If one believes nations are abstractions, one is already dangerously close to saying they don't exist at all, which is the next step.

    To become aware of nationhood does of course require a thought process, but a nation has to exist in the first place for it to work. A nation is either the historical product of the merging of tribes, which is the case for us today in Europe and the Anglosphere, or it's the larger group identity shared by related tribes, as was the case for the Gauls or the Germanic tribes rallying around leaders in opposition to the Romans, which was a nationalist act.
    "After the year 1900 people will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society." - St. Nilus, 430 AD

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    Nation is a race thats what it means. Nations aren't "ideas" they are racial bloodlines.

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    The word "Nation" would have to be massacred first :
    It is not Germanic , but likely "Spanish" or so .

    Natal is something about "birth" .

    One Philosophy might include a broader definition of birth ,
    that includes heritage .

    Another Philosophy likely does not respect heritage , but is
    solely interested in birth ; which might define the Western Societies
    giving away themselves to descendents of immigrants by granting
    passports .
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    Extended families are tribes. Nations transcend tribes exactly because nations are ideas.
    Well, I suppose that civic nationalists do have different ideas about what constitutes a "nation" than ethnic/racial nationalists. In any case, a tribe can also be referred to as a nation.

    It is what makes us more than mere biological substance.
    What are you talking about? Our biological substance is the foundation of our existence.
    — Always outnumbered but never outclassed —

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    There's either direct historical commonality between you and someone else or there isn't.
    We have historical commonalities with bananas. To draw a line what is relevant history, what is relevant kinship, etc. are all abstractions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    We ourselves aren't abstractions and nations consist of us.
    It's about the question of "who is us". When is someone assimilated, e.g. are descendants of Hugenots "us"? There are countless threads on Skadi which are witness to the difficulty of the problematic nature of "us". Sounds to me like there are ideas required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    We are who we are because of our ancestors: their genes, their culture, their language, their history.
    You will have a hard time to describe these terms definitely. As I said, we share genes with Bananas, our culture is not homogeneous and was influenced by different sources, and don't start with language when it comes to Germanic-French hybrid English. Sounds to me like there are ideas required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    If one believes nations are abstractions, one is already dangerously close to saying they don't exist at all, which is the next step.
    Why? Can you elaborate on this?
    I wholeheartedly disagree, it means nations serve a conscious purpose. They are not just there, they are made to serve us (Yeah, the infamous "us" !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    A nation is either the historical product of the merging of tribes, which is the case for us today in Europe and the Anglosphere, or it's the larger group identity shared by related tribes, as was the case for the Gauls or the Germanic tribes rallying around leaders in opposition to the Romans, which was a nationalist act.
    This just shows there are some universals truth for a nation to be successful, nevertheless they don't just happen, they need to be wanted. The fate of Arminius is witness to this.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    We have historical commonalities with bananas. To draw a line what is relevant history, what is relevant kinship, etc. are all abstractions.
    There's no direct historical commonality between bananas and ourselves. Which history is relevant is obvious and needs not to be discussed to know who's a member of your nation or not - it's not bananas. Not considering bananas part of your nation isn't a choice, it's selfevident. In your second post after saying that nations are partial abstractions you're already going full post-modernist. This is what I warned against.

    It's about the question of "who is us". When is someone assimilated, e.g. are descendants of Hugenots "us"? There are countless threads on Skadi which are witness to the difficulty of the problematic nature of "us". Sounds to me like there are ideas required.
    You're always going to have half castes, it's a riddle in and of itself. Ethnic identity is more fluid than gender identity - and many different positions can be taken on these people. Their presence does not push the existence of the nation into the realm of the abstract - after all, we are asking whether Hugenots are part of US, so there is an US in the first place. Accepting racially mixed people is a socio-political choice. It has no bearing on the question of who we are. When we think of Germany, we don't think of the children of migrants - Italo-Germans or Russo-Germans - but German Germans. On the edges of Germany identity, however, you'll find the half castes. People who are not of full German descent.

    You will have a hard time to describe these terms definitely. As I said, we share genes with Bananas, our culture is not homogeneous and was influenced by different sources, and don't start with language when it comes to Germanic-French hybrid English. Sounds to me like there are ideas required.
    I don't consider the banana argument as valid. Honestly, it's absurd, the fact that we share DNA with bananas poses no challenge at all to ethnonationalism since we're not avocados - and strawberries aren't our great-grandparents. you can't move passed the necessity for direct historical commonality. Bananas are food. Foreign influences on your nation's language and culture are inevitable and in some cases positive. It should make no-one confused as to what is English. All culture created or experienced and internalized by English people is English culture.

    Who is English? A child with English parents. Regardless of Norman influences, Greek philosophy, American fast food restaurants, etc. No mental gymnastics are required, there's no need for complicated definitions.

    Why? Can you elaborate on this?
    Well, if you have a hard time deciding whether bananas are German or not, then Africans and Turks should be a whole lot easier for you to see as your own, they're already human for starters. It's confusion leading to more confusion.

    Progressives often use the 'nations are abstractions" argument too, when they complain of going to war for their nation, but unlike you they take that idea to their logical conclusion. Civic nationalists think in the same direction. It's a slippery slope, Jaeger, based on falsehoods. The falsehood being the denial of our blood ties and shared history.

    I wholeheartedly disagree, it means nations serve a conscious purpose. They are not just there, they are made to serve us (Yeah, the infamous "us" !)
    The nation must not serve you, you must serve the nation. If you want to see Germany having conscious purpose you must exist to serve Germany. Do you need abstractions for that? Think of German families and German soil instead.

    Nations can just simply be a fact of nature and history without serving a conscious purpose, they don't even need political unification, and yet its members, no matter how vague their consciousness of their common group identity, will still reap the benefits of being part of their social network.

    This just shows there are some universals truth for a nation to be successful, nevertheless they don't just happen, they need to be wanted. The fate of Arminius is witness to this.
    And I disagree with that. And I would point to gypsies like Sinti and Roma to prove my point. Wanted? Succesful? No, they just happened. Proto-Germany also just happened. Arminius merely called upon an earlier existing network of fellow Germans, his nation, and so did Vercingetorix when rallying the Gauls around him. Or the Greeks when confronting the Persians. These people were already aware that there was something they were part of beyond their tribe or polis.
    "After the year 1900 people will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society." - St. Nilus, 430 AD

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