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Thread: Is Morality Nothing More than an Evolutionary Strategy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    Yes, but you only 'leaned Nationalist' from the first time you recall doing so and this would have been after several years.

    There's no way you born a Nationalist (..which I'm beginning to think you didn't mean literally, so apologies if I'm being pedantic here).

    Anyway, something will have surely triggered it, even if it wasn't your parents. It may even have been a reaction against them.


    In the nature vs nurture argument I am for nature. I believe people are born a certain way. Nurture can only do so much, if anything.

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    I don't disagree with this.

    However, your behaviour is determined by something and is most probably the product of the genes you inherited, which themselves are the product of thousands of years of human evolution. Nothing happens purely by chance (..especially in nature!) and the OP describes how 'morality' came to be what it is today.

    It probably isn't the great virtue we all deem it to be and may serve a more selfish purpose

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    However, your behaviour is determined by something and is most probably the product of the genes you inherited, which themselves are the product of thousands of years of human evolution. Nothing happens purely by chance (..especially in nature!) and the OP describes how 'morality' came to be what it is today.
    What Elizabeth said before, "knowing right from wrong". This is a pretty instinctual thing, and when something, some gene, prevents you in addition from being easily gullible to nonsense (whether it's communism or stranger-altruism or the dictated morals to support the "vulnerable" or whatever), it's maybe not untrue to be a "natural nationalist", and then not necessarily in a political concept-way but rather instinct. They(foreigners)'re not ingroup, they dont belong into "my" group, they're not my kin, I'm not obliged to make room for them, nor to help them and so on. It's only a consequent listening to instinct, to what "is right", and modern politics are not.

    It probably isn't the great virtue we all deem it to be and may serve a more selfish purpose
    Since you know German, you may want, one day, read Nietzsche's "Genealogie der Moral", an intellectually challenging read for sure but one, I believe, well worth the investment.

    Basically he cuts apart the ideologically driven "moralities" and promotes biologically driven morality instead. His rejection of monotheism stems for large parts from this view, too. But it's really vital to read it in German, with the "language" (also of the late 19th century) in mind. Nietzsche is often very multilayered in his statements, and most translations weaken or even take away some of these layers. Highly recommended, in any case.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    I think we're born as opportunists, neither good or evil, but that God has nonetheless instilled us with a conscience to differentiate between wrong and right. Religion brings some order in what would otherwise be a chaotic and ambiguous mess and restricts our opportunistic nature. In western society, devoid of religion, we can see the result of limitless opportunism.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    I don't read copy'n'paste text completely anymore .

    Morality is very likely in the eye of the beholder .


    Everything "New" will get some sales , especially , when
    morality is considered as promoted by a "death cult" , like
    the Christian Religion based on the tongue of a God Abandoned Nest Person .

    Christianity promotes Eyiil Statean and the Parachute Army in the Cloud,
    so since Gad does not show himself as Superhuman ,
    it is easy to switch elsewhere for an opportunity ,
    as for the eternal nourishing as asylum seeker ...
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

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    Since you know German, you may want, one day, read Nietzsche's "Genealogie der Moral", an intellectually challenging read for sure but one, I believe, well worth the investment.

    Basically he cuts apart the ideologically driven "moralities" and promotes biologically driven morality instead. His rejection of monotheism stems for large parts from this view, too. But it's really vital to read it in German, with the "language" (also of the late 19th century) in mind. Nietzsche is often very multilayered in his statements, and most translations weaken or even take away some of these layers. Highly recommended, in any case.
    Just got this sorted, velvet! I found a free PDF version

    Wow, 'multi-layered German' is gonna look great on my CV

  11. #17
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    I think we're born as opportunists, neither good or evil, but that God has nonetheless instilled us with a conscience to differentiate between wrong and right. Religion brings some order in what would otherwise be a chaotic and ambiguous mess and restricts our opportunistic nature. In western society, devoid of religion, we can see the result of limitless opportunism.
    Presence of religion looks like modern-day Turkey, Arabia, Afghanistan, India or christian Mexico or Brasil for that matter, and it does nothing to promote societal values worth living in. In no shape or form, nowhere, nor did it ever anywhere. Also not in 'romantised' "christian" Europe. (Organised) religion always, ever, everywhere, only ever served the purpose of rulership over chunks of the population, it did not, ever, serve the purpose of educating people.

    Our modern-day dilemmas of society dont stem from an absense of religion, because we do have a religion, which is Multikultism, with all the bullshit attached to it. They've raised "tolerance" to a religious belief and diversity has become the only-god. The heretics of today are called "racists", "xenophobes" and what not, and if not (secular) laws would prevent them from doing so (for the time being, that is), they'd happily burn "us nutzies" on the stake. We even already have "public stonings", all the scandals that turn individuals into persona-non-gratas for this or that "racist" statement, ruining their lives. This entire modern-day concept of society is 1:1 based on christian, religious doctrines, including the inquisition methods to go after heretics of the absolutist religion of Multikult.

    Re the opportunistic human nature. Yes, you're right. Every successful surviving organism must by nature be opportunistic, otherwise he will not survive. Social cooperation, ingroup sociality, is just as opportunistic, just that you cannot see it, because you think social cooperation must be dictated from some god - basically against human nature - because otherwise humans would run around randomly killing their neighbours or ripping them off. This is however not the case. Every herd animal is capable of ingroup altruism, selfsacrifice for the good of the group and social cooperation, whether it's apes or meerkats or wolves or horses or reindeers or ants or bees, because it ensures their survival as a group = genes. Social cooperation is just an expression of the opportunistic human nature as herd animal. It does not require a mythical jewish rebel rabbi for the liberation of Israel from Roman occupation to come into being. And it does not require christianity to be maintained either.

    Our modern day problems stem from the detail that we are ruled by traitors or worse, people who are not ingroup members of our Volk, who promote a religion (see above) and "values" that go fundamentally counter the valid interest of self-preservation of our group, who import foreigners en masse, destroy social cohesion, the base natural trust that is the very basis for social cooperation, plunder our wealth, our ancestral lands and promote self-hate under the guise of altruism, tolerance and world openness and all the other bullocks. The problem is not the absense of christianity, but the presense of these demagoges and that their "values" (UN) have become the global religion and rule over and against us. And that they could sneak their way into these positions finds its roots in christian values, so christianity does not offer a solution to this problem, quite the opposite. Christianity evolved into communism and communism evolved into global "multikultism", with the pope being the greatest promoter for more mass migration, just like bishops in former centuries promoted tolerance for Jews (which was most of the time the case, the exclusion of Jews never lasted long before some fundamental christian reinvited the "Volk of his savior"!), the catholic church was at the forefront to promote the colourblindness which France prides itself with for more than 100 years, today it looks like Somalia, christian rulers across the board imported foreigners, not individuals but hole villages to prove how peaceful and happy different religions can live together. Reconquering Spain took some 800 years, right. Yet, this obsession with proving that multikultism works is not gone. And it will never be gone. They're obsessed with "undoing" the curse of the Babel Tower story. The obsession to prove that "humanity is one" is at the very root of this religion, and it will eradicate all human races, peoples, cultures and probably humankind as such on the way, because, if not stopped, they will try it over and over and over again until nothing is left but a deserted planet void of higher life. Of course, who cares? The "kingdom of god" waits in the afterlife, right?
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  12. #18
    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Velvet, you can call the dominant ideology in Western societies a religion, the belief in equality and victimhood is indeed a substitute, counterfeit religion and for the worst of the virtue signalling over socialized mob it's a functional substitute. It has sinners and saints, commandments, masses and vigils, heretics and true believers ... but there's no God and there's no salvation under social liberalism. You can never redeem yourself after being born white or male or hetero or all three and no-one dies for our sins (But then sometimes people do die for their perceived sins, perhaps none more so than the Afrikaners - and nobody cares). The sky is empty and heaven is here or will be here one day, supposedly.

    Most of the believers are in it for social validation - social standing and all the good things that come with it. You have that kind of people in actual religions too, their opportunism may open doors for them but their emptiness makes them supremely unlikable. Quite like the media's legion of saints.

    It's a fundamentally empty religion and if you like me yearn for a mystical experience and more genuine spirituality, and the truth, then it will never fill the hole in your soul. For me an ideology can never replace religion, Velvet. Furthermore: a (based) Catholic or Christian can never be 100% onboard with any ideology - 99% is possible, yes, but never entirely, least of all when ideologies don't leave some room for the Holy Spirit. Ideologies promise us humans will solve all our problems somehow by ourselves and that these problems are earthly and material. Some obviously more so than others.

    I don't need my ideology to be another religion, I'm fully motivated for both without having the race to take the place of God, I'm loyal to race, Reich, state, nation and God - but I sure can imagine that the type of person who is part of the secular religion which now dominates the West instantly trading their current secular religion for the next popular one - they're spineless like that. Pretty much how Madrid was a staunch Republican city during the Spanish Civil War, but as soon as Franco's troops entered Madrid the inhabitants welcomed him with open arms. At heart, most progressives of today are the very same crowd which hailed Franco as their saviour, the same dumb people of the same superficial mindset - but they're good at surviving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    Christianity evolved into communism and communism evolved into global "multikultism"
    And metal evolved into nu-metal. I have two words for you: Linkin Park. Is metal bad too now? If Satan is real, then subverting Christianity and creating ideologies which mimic Christianity would be his modus operandi. Communism was and is always about destroying Christianity and the Christian social order in the first place, which at the same time wrecks our nations (also intentionally), and only then economics.

    And I would say that many of our problems do indeed stem from a moral crisis, all serious problems do - and it's obvious.

    This discussion we're having now is reoccuring in our circles - and I would say your side of the debate will always point out that progressivism/communism evolved out of Christianity - and that's very possible - but my side of the debate will always point out that the decline of Christianity between 1789-1968 remarkably coincides with the rise of these ideas - it's too much of a coincidence. And in some cases the relation is completely undeniable - the feminist madness for instance. Even if Christianity somehow served as an inspiration to historical feminists, one can hardly say Christian churches historically endorsed it or that it's biblical or traditional. Hence not Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    Presence of religion looks like modern-day Turkey, Arabia, Afghanistan, India or christian Mexico or Brasil for that matter, and it does nothing to promote societal values worth living in.
    Or Russia or Poland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    Re the opportunistic human nature. Yes, you're right. Every successful surviving organism must by nature be opportunistic, otherwise he will not survive.
    Absolutely. But if you make an ideology out of opportunism then you get a neoliberal society of all against all and the top against the bottom. And tons of migrants so the people at the top can become even richer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    Social cooperation, ingroup sociality, is just as opportunistic, just that you cannot see it, because you think social cooperation must be dictated from some god - basically against human nature - because otherwise humans would run around randomly killing their neighbours or ripping them off. This is however not the case. Every herd animal is capable of ingroup altruism
    I can see it alright, basic altruism doesn't require Christianity, but not all forms of social cooperation are equal - or just as opportunistic - and not all opportunism is wrong either, of course. Some forms of social organisation and even opportunism are blessed because backed by a heavenly mandate or they're at least functional. The same can't be said about all ideologies. You can go wrong with an ideology, but you can't go wrong with the word of God.

    In conclusion I'll say: naturally you should go for the truth because it's the truth and not because it may personally benefit you, either financially or otherwise, that's what makes one a scammer of sorts. That's the kind of opportunism I'm denouncing here. But obviously no Skadite is a blatant opportunist otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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  14. #19
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    Religion brings some order in what would otherwise be a chaotic and ambiguous mess and restricts our opportunistic nature. In western society, devoid of religion, we can see the result of limitless opportunism.
    I don't see how limiting opportunism can possibly be favourable.

    Whether it's a business opportunity or a romantic one, life is full of these and 'he who hesitates is lost', as the saying goes.

    Those who allow religion (an artificial, man-made construct) to get in the way of finding a partner will inevitably lose out to those who follow their more natural instincts.

    You can counter this with a lecture about 'morality' if you like but the takeaway message of the OP is that nature simply doesn't recognise this!

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    I don't see how limiting opportunism can possibly be favourable.
    Next time 1000 blue collar Englishmen lose their job, we'll ask them for their thoughts on this conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan
    Whether it's a business opportunity or a romantic one, life is full of these and 'he who hesitates is lost', as the saying goes.

    Those who allow religion (an artificial, man-made construct) to get in the way of finding a partner will inevitably lose out to those who follow their more natural instincts.

    You can counter this with a lecture about 'morality' if you like but the takeaway message of the OP is that nature simply doesn't recognise this!
    Yes, indeed, I can counter this with a lecture about morality or by pointing out that there are much less business and romantic opportunities than you think - precisely because of a lack of morality and altruism. But I've done that in other threads and there's no need to repeat myself tonight.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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