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Thread: Northern Ireland and Brexit

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    Northern Ireland and Brexit


    Southern Irish should be careful what they wish for with a Border poll for a united Ireland.



    I have one question for people in the Republic who said they want a referendum on Irish unity: Are you mad? Northern Ireland is radically dysfunctional, implacably divided and politically shipwrecked; insular and immature to a pathological degree. It is an embarrassment to itself. I should know. I have lived there all my life.


    Why would you, as citizens of a confident, prosperous and increasingly progressive society, want to saddle yourselves with such a costly, troublesome burden?


    I suspect that many of the people in the Republic who say they want a referendum – almost half the respondents in the latest Irish Times poll – have never been anywhere near the North.


    What they aspire to is a romantic, time-honoured and largely unexamined ideal, similar to the Christian belief in heaven, without stopping to ponder what it would actually be like.


    In the same spirit of universal Irishness, in which we are all equal and as one, it is also seen as improper, a socially unmentionable form of partitionist prejudice, to say that the North is nuts. Well, it is. I’m not suffering from internalised Nordiphobia: this is the reality.


    So please let me introduce you to my lovely home Northern Ireland.


    We may not be actively engaged in killing each other anymore, but bigotry still holds this place in a death-grip. The bizarre obsession with flags, language and territory is just the outward manifestation of that.


    The wounds haven’t been cleaned, just plastered over with competing narratives, some more ludicrous and self-serving than others


    Before Stormont fell, in January 2017, we had a bad-tempered carve-up between unrepentant apologists for political murder on the one side and hardcore fundamentalists, opposed to abortion and equal marriage, on the other.


    · Una Mullally: Southern patriotic grandstanding must stop if we want a united Ireland
    · Time for measured debate about the prospect of a united Ireland
    · Polls suggest gradual shift to united Ireland


    Now we are rudderless, spinning in circles, adrift in the doldrums even as Brexit inexorably approaches. But a mutual macho reluctance to lose face – enacted, ironically enough, by their female leaders – prevents the DUP and Sinn Féin from resurrecting the devolved government.



    Sectarian standoff



    Clearly nothing is more vital than maintaining that all-important sectarian standoff. Meanwhile public services are falling apart. Education is in crisis, with almost half of schools in budget deficit, and some parents donating basic items like toilet roll and stationery.


    Urgent plans for health service reform are stalled, and waiting lists are out of control, with almost 95,000 people forced to wait more than a year for a first consultant-led appointment at a hospital.


    The deeper story is that Northern Ireland is sinking under the moral and psychic weight of its murderous past, and the collective failure to address the truth of what happened contaminates all attempts to move forward.


    The wounds haven’t been cleaned, just plastered over with competing narratives, some more ludicrous and self-serving than others.



    A car on fire in the North Queen Street area of Belfast close to the site of a contentious Twelfth of July bonfire.


    But the unconscionable neglect of victims’ needs, and the failure to deal with all that raw, unprocessed trauma, means that an epidemic of mental health disorders is being passed down from generation to generation.


    And they still shoot children in Northern Ireland: don’t forget that. This casual butchery is all part of the enduring culture of lawlessness. Last year it was reported that “punishment attacks” by dissident republican and loyalist paramilitaries had risen by 60 per cent over the previous four years.


    Today I’d argue that – politically, socially – the Republic is closer to England and Scotland than it is to the North


    Many of the victims are youths accused of criminal behaviour, like stealing cars or dealing drugs, by thugs posing as protectors of their own communities. In some cases desperate parents have even dosed their teenage children with alcohol and painkillers to make the beating or shooting more bearable.



    Separate


    Back in 1978, when Dervla Murphy published A Place Apart, her determined attempt to understand the Troubles in the North, she wrote: “My own conviction…is that Northern Ireland has already become as ‘separate’ from both the UK and the rest of Ireland as England and Scotland are from the Republic.”


    Today I’d argue that – politically, socially – the Republic is closer to England and Scotland than it is to the North. We are more of a place apart than ever.


    Still keen to make this violent, obstreperous and heavily subsidised basket-case part of a united Ireland?


    To be purely selfish, I wish you would. Stormont is dead, and the British aren’t making much of a fist of their stewardship of the North.


    But, really, I wouldn’t recommend it.


    Fionola Meredith is a journalist based in Belfast.




    Southerners should be careful what they wish for with a ...

    Irish Times, 15 Mar 2019.


    unrepentant apologists for political murder on the one side” - Shinners

    “and hardcore fundamentalists, opposed to abortion and equal marriage, on the other” – abortion was ordered on the Rep of Ireland by the EUssr
    and the ‘gay marriage referendum’ was aided by the media and the election professionally rigged.
    These protestant fundamentalists greatly deserve respect and admiration.


    I have lived nearly all my life here and I know one ‘Brit’, a second generation Irish Londoner so the shinners motto ‘Brits out, but blacks and muslims welcome’ (we’ll get their vote) – is pure insanity.

    Don’t not want a multicult coloured european state republic foisted on us by dull marxist shinners.

    Because of Brexit the Eurorats are doing their utmost to punish the ‘Brits’ for daring to Brexit by gifting Northern Ireland to ‘golden boy’ the Rep of Ireland. I thought nationalism in the EU was over - it was to be post national without borders. But if it's any use to the EU it will use it.

    Also if the EUssr can have Northern Ireland that extends both the EU land and sea domain.

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    DUP Democratic Unionist Party


    A third loss for the PM’s deal is expected to open the door to Parliament imposing a ‘super-soft’ Brexit on the nation – or a second referendum



    ARLENE Foster was last night begged to save Brexit by backing Theresa May’s deal in a crunch vote yesterday. The PM yesterday decided to put her EU agreement back before MPs on the original Brexit day of March 29 - in one final gamble.


    DUP leader Arlene Foster has been urged to save Brexit and back Theresa May's deal. And Tories urged the DUP leader to change her mind and hand 10 crucial votes to the Government - after she vowed her party would oppose it.

    One senior Tory said: “Come on Arlene - think of the national interest”.

    An MP told The Sun: “They could go from the Democratic Unionist Party to the Deeply Unpopular Party in one afternoon.”

    A third crushing loss for the PM’s deal is expected to open the door to Parliament imposing a ‘super-soft’ Brexit on the nation – or a second referendum.

    Frantic last minute attempts were under way last night to try to talk round the DUP - led by Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson, a former chief whip with close links to the Ulster unionist party. It came in another extraordinary day in Westminster.

    · A Cabinet minister warned the DUP last night that Ulster faces reunification with Ireland if the party goes ahead with its threat to vote down the deal.

    · A Labour MP vowed to back the PM’s deal telling the Sun: “Today is D-Day.”

    · Jeremy Hunt launched the desperate race to replace Theresa May yesterday with a rallying cry for the Tories to “be the party for everyone”.

    · Tory sources said that as many as 30 Ministers or MPs were weighing up whether to run for Downing Street.

    DUP bosses were yesterday insisting they will refuse to support the deal because of their fears that the Irish ‘backstop’ – designed to prevent a hard border with Ireland - will separate them from the rest of the UK.

    A Cabinet source gave the DUP’s chances of backing Mrs May “just 10%, if that”.


    A Cabinet minister warned the DUP last night that Ulster... 29 March 2019.

    A Cabinet Minister warned the DUP last night that Ulster faces reunification with Ireland if the party goes ahead with its threat to vote down the deal.

    As Tories’ patience with the DUP snapped, the senior Government figure told the SUN: “If its No Deal, there will be a border poll and Northern Ireland will disappear.

    “If there’s a general election and Corbyn wins, the same. It’s time they woke up and smelt the coffee. They’re facing an existential threat today”.


    The EU has no intention of letting the UK leave the EU intact.
    Scotland is as much as gone, and they have no intention of leaving Northern Ireland in the UK either. This is what comes of National assemblies for everyone, but England.
    This is what happens too when you run the opposition. May was and is a remainer.
    World Wars have been fought for less.

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    Nigel Dodds 'would stay in the EU rather than risk Northern Ireland's place in UK'



    THE DUP’S DEPUTY leader Nigel Dodds has said that he would prefer staying in the European Union than risking Northern Ireland’s position in the United Kingdom.



    Speaking to BBC Newsnight after Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement was defeated for a third time this afternoon, Dodds said that when asked about his preferences:

    I would stay in the European Union and remain, rather than risk Northern Ireland’s position. That’s how strongly I feel about the union.
    My concern about the Withdrawal Agreement is that it creates potentially under the backstop trade barriers. But as we leave, the backstop and future negotiations could leave Northern Ireland behind, causing economic and political ruptures between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

    He went on to say that he wanted Brexit to be delivered and the result of the referendum respected, but added that it “can’t be at the risk of separating Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK”.


    The DUP’s 10 MPs voted against Theresa May’s deal this afternoon. It lost by a majority of 58 votes.


    After the vote and before MPs left the chamber, Nigel Dodds urged Theresa May to look at the Irish backstop again. “She knows that that remains a problem.”


    “She knows that the EU and Leo Varadkar has said that there will be no hard border… Use the time constructively to get that matter sorted out,” he said.


    The EU, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and Theresa May have all repeatedly said that the Withdrawal Agreement is not up for renegotiation.



    Nigel Dodds 'would stay in the EU rather than risk Northern Ireland's place in UK' 30 Mar 2019.

    Irish catholic Nationalists class barrister and MP Dodds as protestant,originally of Scottish descent and alien, yet they class the Gay Indian PM Varadkar as Irish, whose father Ashok was born in Bombay now Mumbai. Dodd’s ancestors have lived in Ireland for at least four centuries. Today’s Irish have long ceased to be Irish, they are now ardent Europeans only too willing to do the EU’s bidding.

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    Polls shows 35% of English public want Northern Ireland to remain in UK



    JUST OVER a third of the English public want Northern Ireland to stay part of the UK, according to a new opinion poll.


    Independent pollster Lord Ashcroft published the findings on Twitter, showing 35% of English public quizzed were eager for Northern Ireland to remain part of the UK while 13% felt it should no longer be part of it.


    The results, which were based on polls and focus groups conducted by the former Conservative peer, also showed 10% of respondents they did not know how they felt about the prospect of Northern Ireland's departure while 43% said they did not have a view and that it was for the people of Northern Ireland to decide.


    Another poll, meanwhile, showed 28% of English voters felt Brexit made Irish unification more likely, with 27% saying it made no difference and 38% saying they didn't know.





    The survey also found 34% of respondents felt it would not be ideal for Northern Ireland having different arrangements to the rest of the UK as part of any deal designed to avoid the issue of a hard border.


    27%, meanwhile felt the idea would be completely unacceptable with 12% describing the idea as perfectly acceptable.


    Speaking to the Belfast Telegraph, Lord Ashcroft noted that the results indicated few people in England have any grasp of the political landscape in Northern Ireland.

    "Apart from the observation that 'the religious element is very strong very few had any grasp of the dynamics of Northern Irish politics, which seem complicated and even mysterious to many people,” he said. "Some were not even aware that Northern Ireland’s long-term place in the Union was even an issue, and for others the question seemed less to do with self-determination, as in Scotland, than with identity.”


    Lord Ashcroft noted that while the findings indicated unionists “probably feel much like us, that they’re part of us”, others naturally felt should “Ireland is their own country. There’s water separating England and Ireland. So if Northern Ireland became part of Ireland, that’s Ireland, one whole country".


    Despite this many felt the UK would be weakened in the event of the union breaking up.





    However, Lord Ashcroft’s research also found that English voters think Northern Ireland benefits more from being in the UK than England and Wales. This opinion was especially prevalent among leave voters.



    Irish Post: Polls shows 35% of English public want Northern Ireland to remain in UK

    23 X 2019.



    Catholic / Nationalist & Irish / Republicans are serious cultural marxists believing 100% in globalism, liberalism and the EU.

    Protestants / Unionist & British / Conservative are moral and unthreatening, not in favour of gay marriage, abortion, mass migration and liberal marxism.

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    New book reveals P M Margaret Thatcher's plan for 'no man's land' on Irish border

    Former UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher wanted to create a five-mile 'no man's land' between Northern Ireland and the Republic, 35 years before Boris Johnson's two-border Brexit plan.


    The secret British proposal in 1984 has been revealed by Michael Lillis, diplomatic adviser to former taoiseach Garret FitzGerald, who helped negotiate the Anglo-Irish Agreement. The offer, which involved the Garda and the Irish Army being able to cross the border to police Northern Ireland, was made by former UK Cabinet Secretary Sir Robert Armstrong and leading diplomat Sir David Goodall. It was rejected by Dublin.
    The offer, which involved the Garda and the Irish Army being able to cross the border to police Northern Ireland, was made by former UK Cabinet Secretary Sir Robert Armstrong and leading diplomat Sir David Goodall. It was rejected by Dublin.



    The proposal is outlined in a new book, Inside Accounts, by University of Portsmouth academic Dr Graham Spencer.


    In an interview with the author, Mr Lillis describes the border plan as "a sort of crazy British proposal, although not a random one" as it was Cabinet-approved. The proposal was rejected by Dublin because while the Garda and Irish Army were universally popular with their public, the same was not true of the security forces in Northern Ireland. "For virtually one half of the population, the army is regarded as an occupying force, while for the other half it's regarded as 'our army' and, while the RUC was seen as 'our police force' for unionists, for nationalists it was an oppressive, foreign police force," Mr Lillis said. "Because of that, the idea of having those people on our side of the border, when they were regarded as oppressors of nationalists in the north, was unthinkable.


    "Even so, Armstrong and Goodall came over to the taoiseach's department and they made this proposal in writing. "It wasn't just Mrs Thatcher and it wasn't just the foreign secretary; it was a Cabinet-approved proposal, as well." Mr Lillis said he thought the proposal was "remarkable" because the Republic would "have our folks on the other side of the border, working in nationalist areas inside the north ... although we had no interest in having the RUC in Co Monaghan, we had nevertheless broken a mould".


    He added: "If you consider the Cabinet saying to these foreigners, 'Come in to our territory and help us to solve this chaotic situation', well that was a big deal. I'm sorry our side didn't see it in those terms and negotiate on from there."




    Book reveals Thatcher's plan for 'no man's land' on Irish border

    Former PM Margaret Thatcher wanted to create a five-mile 'no man's land'.

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    What do you think should be done, jagdmesser?

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    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    What do you think should be done, jagdmesser?
    Coillearnach.

    With ruling governing assemblies there should be a code of practice that prohibits elected representatives and parties that do not want to do not want to professionally do the job of an elected representative. This would rule out absentee representatives like Sinn Fein and obstructive parties like the SNP in the HoC. Politics is the only place and profession where this happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagdmesser View Post
    With ruling governing assemblies there should be a code of practice that prohibits elected representatives and parties that do not want to do not want to professionally do the job of an elected representative. This would rule out absentee representatives like Sinn Fein and obstructive parties like the SNP in the HoC. Politics is the only place and profession where this happens.
    what do you mean "don't want to professionally do the job"?

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    absentee representatives like Sinn Fein - in The Northern Ireland Assembly, Belfast Sinn Fein have refused to take their seats over the issue of ‘equality’ which is the right to gay marriage and abortion. The result is because of the power sharing arrangement there has been no governing assembly for 3 year. You shouldn’t be allowed to stand for public office if your not going to turn up.


    If you don’t come to work for 3 years you shouldn’t be on half pay or get expenses.



    and obstructive parties like the SNP in the HoC – the Scottish Nationalist Party turn up and take their seats but as their actions show clearly they do not want to be part of the United Kingdom despite the result of the Scottish referendum in 2014 voting for continued membership of the UK. Look at how they have behaved over Brexit.


    Bit like work, don’t take the job if you don’t want to do it. Give it to someone who does want to do it and will do it.

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