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Thread: The "Ladogan" Myth

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    Post The "Ladogan" Myth

    One of the most perseverent myths lefts behind as a legacy of Dr. Carlton Coon's The Races of Europe is the alleged existence of a "Ladogan race" whose somewhat phenotypically Asiatic features are asusmed to be the direct result of Mongoloid admixture. Richard McCullough estimates that these "Ladogans" compose approximately 35% of the population of Russia, not to mention the "Neo-Danubians" and "East-Baltics" who supposedly are the result of Ladogan miscegenation with a lighter element. According to McCullough, 80% of Russians are either Ladogan, East Baltic or Neo-Danubian; this assumes that these Russians have sufficient Mongoloid admixture to alter their phenotype. Modern genetics disagrees:

    http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/admixture.html

    Superhaplogroup M represents Asian or East African admixture. Haplogroup L is sub-Saharan. Haplogroups A through D represent Asian or Amerindian admixture.

    M and L A, B, C D Total
    Bulgaria/Turkey 2.92% 6.86% 9.78%
    European Russia 1.40% 3.72% 5.12%
    Spain/Portugal 1.99% 2.27% 4.26%
    France/Italy 2.42% 0.80% 3.22%
    Germany 1.14% 0.57% 1.71%
    Finland/Estonia 0.99% 0.50% 1.49%
    Scandinavia 0.47% 0.32% 0.79%
    England/Wales 0.47% 0.23% 0.70%
    Scotland 0.11% 0.11% 0.22%
    Iceland 0% 0.43% 0.43%
    Ireland 0% 0% 0%

    The superficially "Asiatic" features of most "Neo-Danubians", "Ladogans" and "East baltics" are due to convergent evolution, the same way that the superfically "Mediterranean characteristics of dark Brits are due to convergent evolution rather than Middle Eatsenr admixture.

    --Joseph.
    Last edited by Prodigal Son; Friday, February 7th, 2003 at 11:23 PM.

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    I find it hard to believe that most Russians would have some mongoloid admixture. I don't think that none do...but I have always found that a bit hard to swallow. From a skeptical point of view...
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

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    Originally posted by Vanessa
    I find it hard to believe that most Russians would have some mongoloid admixture. I don't think that none do...but I have always found that a bit hard to swallow. From a skeptical point of view...
    Mongoloid admixture among Russians is exremely rare in European Rssia. It is concentrated in Siberia and the Volga Region.

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    Post Re: The "Ladogan" Myth

    Did they really have enough time to evolve their own superficial Asiatic characteristics?

    Why would Britain have dark people when across the sea from them, in the same climate, the people remained light? Doesn't make sense..

    Originally posted by Prodigal Son
    The superficially "Asiatic" features of most "Neo-Danubians", "Ladogans" and "East baltics" are due to convergent evolution, the same way that the superfically "Mediterranean characteristics of dark Brits are due to convergent evolution rather than Middle Eatsenr admixture.

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    Post Re: The "Ladogan" Myth

    Originally posted by Prodigal Son
    One of the most perseverent myths lefts behind as a legacy of Dr. Carlton Coon's The Races of Europe is the alleged existence of a "Ladogan race" whose somewhat phenotypically Asiatic features are asusmed to be the direct result of Mongoloid admixture. Richard McCullough estimates that these "Ladogans" compose approximately 35% of the population of Russia, not to mention the "Neo-Danubians" and "East-Baltics" who supposedly are the result of Ladogan miscegenation with a lighter element. According to McCullough, 80% of Russians are either Ladogan, East Baltic or Neo-Danubian; this assumes that these Russians have sufficient Mongoloid admixture to alter their phenotype. Modern genetics disagrees:

    http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/admixture.html

    Superhaplogroup M represents Asian or East African admixture. Haplogroup L is sub-Saharan. Haplogroups A through D represent Asian or Amerindian admixture.

    M and L A, B, C D Total
    Bulgaria/Turkey 2.92% 6.86% 9.78%
    European Russia 1.40% 3.72% 5.12%
    Spain/Portugal 1.99% 2.27% 4.26%
    France/Italy 2.42% 0.80% 3.22%
    Germany 1.14% 0.57% 1.71%
    Finland/Estonia 0.99% 0.50% 1.49%
    Scandinavia 0.47% 0.32% 0.79%
    England/Wales 0.47% 0.23% 0.70%
    Scotland 0.11% 0.11% 0.22%
    Iceland 0% 0.43% 0.43%
    Ireland 0% 0% 0%

    The superficially "Asiatic" features of most "Neo-Danubians", "Ladogans" and "East baltics" are due to convergent evolution, the same way that the superfically "Mediterranean characteristics of dark Brits are due to convergent evolution rather than Middle Eatsenr admixture.

    --Joseph.
    Maybe you didn't understand what you read? Coon didn't say Ladogans are a result of real Mongoloid admixture, but "incipient", that is, evolved. He further states that all UPs have some degree of similarity to Mongoloids, although mostly by the largeheadedness and strong bone structure and nothing else. However Ladogans were thought to be more progressively evolved in that direction. Coon also speculated that Lapps were even further evolved in that direction than Ladogans, and were not from direct Mongoloid admixture. However, genetic studies proves that Lapps are halfway between whites and true Mongoloids.

    McCulloch has also said that he even disagrees with Coon and there is nothing Mongoloid at all about Ladogans... so there you go.

    And finally, Coon believed that all Mongoloids were proto-whites, which has somewhat of a corroboration by Rushton's work, being that Mongoloids broke away from whites about 40,000 years ago.
    Last edited by Nordhammer; Friday, February 7th, 2003 at 12:54 PM.

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    Post Re: Re: The "Ladogan" Myth

    Coon is not God of Anthropology, his work is one of many, and not the best... I don't insist it's because he was a poor scholar, just hadn't enough relevant data, esp. on Eastern Europeans (nobody had in those times... however, even than his sources were outdated, probably due to linguistic barrier).

    There is perceptible Mongolid admixture in Eastern, Central and Northern Europe, and that's what we're talking about.

    The main mistake of Mr. Coon is that he wrongfully believed that the main racial type of North-Eastern Europeans, labeled Neo-Danubian, is the result of intermixture between Nordics and Ladogans, while he clearly attributes, unlike Nordhammer says...a Crô-Magnon-like broad-faced, low-orbitted mesocephal, filling most closely the requirements of an ideal modern Finnish type; and a small-statured brachycephal with a long face and high orbits, which in some instances is at least partly mongoloid. As will be seen later, the sub-brachycephalic element in the Danubian population was probably related to these non-Mediterranean forest types. ...Ladogan "Race" to mixed Europid-Mongolid types, and indeed it's proven that the type found in Ladoga is Metis, and partially Mongoloid in origin.

    The point is that Balts weren't of the Ladogan/Metis racial type, but of the regular UP type. In anthropological cluster they're even more Europid (theoretically) than other Europids, with massive heads and protruding noses. After Slavs, who were of the generalized BA type, have moved in they've mixed with the Balts. Somewhere Nordic strain is stronger, and somewhere Baltic (Moscow Slavs were indeed fully Nordic, unlike their western neighbours). Fully Europid territory of Russia is no significantly bigger now than it was 1000 years back...

    But it's all pointless to argue with long dead Coon...

    What's "incipient Mongoloidism"? Ladogan skulls are clearly partially Mongolid - flattish faces, small noses with small angles (25'')... Russians show quite the **opposite** characteristics... our nasal angles are greater, and faces are well profiled... yes, there's statistical flatness, statistical nasal dperession within Russia proper, but only on the periphery - to the East from Moscow, in the Volga-?Kama region, on southern shore of the Great Lakes...

    Another interesting thing, that there are semi-Mongolid pockets in the eastern part of the Baltic States, and Prussian Germans have assimilated a lot of semi-Mongolid Prussians...

    And yet another interesting thing is that the racial types of Northern Eastern Slavs, Neo-Danubian, if you like, is dominant in Northen Germany, esp. in NE Germany... forget about Borreby and Phalian types - they don't fit metrically (see Sheidt). The second German from the SNPA gallery is clearly of the Baltic/Neo-Danubian type... and the type is common in southern Scandinavia, and has close approximations even in Frisia... It seems this racial type is the most numerous blondish/Nordish type...


    Heck, thousand books are written, racial boundaries are established with amazing precision, yet an outdated book rules in the Net

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    Post Re: Re: Re: The "Ladogan" Myth

    Perhapds Nordhammer haven't read the entire TRoE?

    (4) Ladogan: I propose to give this name to the descendants of the mesocephalic and brachycephalic forest-dwelling population of northern Europe east of the Baltic in Kammkeramik times. This type is a blend of a partly mongoloid brachycephalic element with a mesocephalic form of general Upper Palaeolithic aspect; these elements are seen in crania from Lake Ladoga and Salis Roje. (See Chapter IV, section 13, pp. 125-126.) Corded and/or Danubian elements are inextricably blended here, although the mongoloid and Upper Palaeolithic elements seem at present more important. In its present form this composite type shows two numerous variants:

    You see, no "incipent mongoloidism" talk...

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    And, Joseph, please stop talking about epicanthus - it's frequence 0,1%, and only in Volga-Kama and Great Lakes regions.

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    Post Re: Re: The "Ladogan" Myth

    Originally posted by ladygoeth33
    Did they really have enough time to evolve their own superficial Asiatic characteristics?


    Yes. Once upon a time Alpines were considered partially Mongoloid because of their brachycephaly. THat theory has sinc ebeen discredited as well.

    Why would Britain have dark people when across the sea from them, in the same climate, the people remained light? Doesn't make sense..
    Read what genetics has to say about dark Brits here. If you have problems with modern day genetics, I suggest you take it up with someone else.

    --Joseph.

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    Joe,

    Dark Brits are not UPs, they're Meds...

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