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Thread: How Do We Know Jesus Was Really Who He Said He Was?

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus
    Plus there's the testimony about him being the son of a Roman soldier
    It's only Talmudic slander - Jews call Christ's mother a prostitute who was impregnated by a Roman soldier rather than the Holy Spirit. And this then also serves as an explanation for Christ's take on the Roman occupiers.

    On the other hand, I find it plausible that Jesus may have visited India.
    Christ supposedly visiting Britain or India is part of Christian folklore - there's indeed a tomb in Kashmir which you can still visit and where Christ is supposedly buried, but my money is on this site being the grave of an early Christian preacher or apostle, or more likely a Medieval Muslim preacher, which is what historians think it is. The reason why this location is known as Christ's tomb in our day and age has more to do with luring tourists to Kashmir than with historical truth. I don't believe Christ ever left His home region myself, I find it all very farfetched.

    The Jews even counted him among the Samaritans, which points to a non-Jewish origin.
    Samaritans were of Jewish blood though. I'm not aware of the Jews viewing Christ as a Samaritan however, but Galileans like Himself would've been seen as not Jewish enough by other Jews.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    It's only Talmudic slander - Jews call Christ's mother a prostitute who was impregnated by a Roman soldier rather than the Holy Spirit. And this then also serves as an explanation for Christ's take on the Roman occupiers.
    Partly slander. What's so bad about the possibility of having a Roman soldier as a father?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Christ supposedly visiting Britain or India is part of Christian folklore - there's indeed a tomb in Kashmir which you can still visit and where Christ is supposedly buried, but my money is on this site being the grave of an early Christian preacher or apostle, or more likely a Medieval Muslim preacher, which is what historians think it is. The reason why this location is known as Christ's tomb in our day and age has more to do with luring tourists to Kashmir than with historical truth. I don't believe Christ ever left His home region myself, I find it all very farfetched.
    Historians aren't archaeologists.

    Almost all religious founders have found it necessary to traverse continents and participate in an interchange of culture. If Christ was stranded in Galilee, he'd be inferior to the learned Alexandrian Jews.

    One could argue that he was omniscient so he didn't have to venture out and learn anything, but Mark 13:32 and Eccl. 3:11 have set limitations on his knowledge. Plus the question necessarily arises: what on earth did he even spent 30 years of his youth doing? No miracles, no teachings, yet he supposedly knew everything. To know how to help people but not do anything to relieve them of their misery is just plain pacifism. Another example: "Jesus wept." So instead of immediately coming to Lazarus' aid, he stood there doing nothing useful? Was he just loafing around? Why do we compare him to a shepherd, an occupation which was universally loathed in antiquity? It will be seen that all truly great men affirm the principle of work and it's necessity. Jesus would not even recognize this teaching that "one can be saved by just believing in this creed".

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Samaritans were of Jewish blood though. I'm not aware of the Jews viewing Christ as a Samaritan however, but Galileans like Himself would've been seen as not Jewish enough by other Jews.
    Were they?

    See John 8:48.

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus
    Partly slander. What's so bad about the possibility of having a Roman soldier as a father?
    Then there's no Christ, no resurrection, no salvation and no meaningful Christianity. The crucifiction would also be pointless. Christianity would've died together with the Roman Empire if its adherents believed something like that, it would be one more cult in a declining Roman Empire. If I believed Christ's father was a Roman soldier instead of the Holy Spirit, I would not be a Christian.

    Yes, you could still argue in favor of those defunct forms of Christianity in which Christ was merely a man, but they're a waste of time.

    Almost all religious founders have found it necessary to traverse continents and participate in an interchange of culture. If Christ was stranded in Galilee, he'd be inferior to the learned Alexandrian Jews.
    Not inferior if Jesus of Nazareth happens to be God - even if some things remained hidden even for the son before leaving this mortal coil. And Christ's stomping ground may have been rather cosmopolitan, He didn't need to travel to come into contact with Greek philosophy and Oriental wisdom. I'm fully aware of this supposed trip to India prior to Christ's public life - if you want to believe in it, fine, but it's only folklore. Traveling that far back in the day, well beyond the boundaries of the Roman Empire, staying in India for a brief time and making it home again before turning 30 is a serious challenge. It's no more credible than Christ's holiday in Britain with the druids or Mary Magdalene living in a cave in Southern France in 50 AD.

    Plus the question necessarily arises: what on earth did he even spent 30 years of his youth doing?
    We don't know. Working in his dad's shop most likely. It wasn't the time to act yet. But He wasn't like other kids either, so Christ probably was an unusual young man too.

    Why do we compare him to a shepherd, an occupation which was universally loathed in antiquity?
    He's a shepherd of men.

    "Jesus wept." So instead of immediately coming to Lazarus' aid, he stood there doing nothing useful?
    Christ wept for the bereaved, people of his inner circle whom He would've been very familiar with - Lazarus too was a friend. Christ knew He was going to resurrect Lazarus and didn't weep for Lazarus. Not acting straightaway is irrelevant, you don't get to understand God and neither does God have to jump through loopholes to please mere mortals who can't see the bigger picture. Pain, sickness and death are all temporary and relative. And God doesn't have to bend over backwards for the "gib me dis, gib me dat" crowd.

    It will be seen that all truly great men affirm the principle of work and it's necessity. Jesus would not even recognize this teaching that "one can be saved by just believing in this creed".
    Indeed, be a Catholic, faith alone is not enough. Yet only through the son does one reach the father. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

    Were they?

    See John 8:48.
    John 8:48: The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

    Christ ignores the first part of the question, but the answer is no. He answers they're dishonoring Him with their line of questioning. Christ's parents aren't Samaritan and Christ's home town is in Nazareth in Galilee. It's just the Jews being of little faith.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Then there's no Christ, no resurrection, no salvation and no meaningful Christianity. The crucifiction would also be pointless. Christianity would've died together with the Roman Empire if its adherents believed something like that, it would be one more cult in a declining Roman Empire. If I believed Christ's father was a Roman soldier instead of the Holy Spirit, I would not be a Christian.
    Yes, you could still argue in favor of those defunct forms of Christianity in which Christ was merely a man, but they're a waste of time.
    The narrative says the Holy Spirit later descended upon him, which contradicts the notion that he was born with it.

    The reason why Christianity survived and the Western half of Rome fell was due to it adapting to the social conditions better. In Mein Kampf, Hitler describes how the Pan-German movement failed to take into account the social aspect. In the letters of Julian, Julian describes how badly neglected socialism was among the pagans.

    Letter 22, To Arsacius:
    For indeed no one, a little while ago, would have ventured even to pray for a change of such a sort or so complete within so short a time. Why, then, do we think that this is enough, why do we not observe that it is their benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Not inferior if Jesus of Nazareth happens to be God - even if some things remained hidden even for the son before leaving this mortal coil. And Christ's stomping ground may have been rather cosmopolitan, He didn't need to travel to come into contact with Greek philosophy and Oriental wisdom. I'm fully aware of this supposed trip to India prior to Christ's public life - if you want to believe in it, fine, but it's only folklore. Traveling that far back in the day, well beyond the boundaries of the Roman Empire, staying in India for a brief time and making it home again before turning 30 is a serious challenge. It's no more credible than Christ's holiday in Britain with the druids or Mary Magdalene living in a cave in Southern France in 50 AD.
    Nowhere was it taught that Jesus was god. It always emphasized that he was a Son of God. This erroneous teaching arises from misinterpretation of his "I am" statements. The "I" doesn't even refer to Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    We don't know. Working in his dad's shop most likely. It wasn't the time to act yet. But He wasn't like other kids either, so Christ probably was an unusual young man too.
    That sounds monotonous. We read about how he amazed Mary and Joseph in his early visits to the Temple with his discourses with the Rabbis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    He's a shepherd of men.
    Shepherds foster dependence. They are scarcely emancipators. Maybe they fend off wolves, but they don't teach their sheep to fend for themselves. What was the point of Jesus' expulsion of demons into pigs in Mark 5? Why did he make himself vulnerable here? And let's not forget about the teaching of the mustard seed and the faith that moves mountains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Christ wept for the bereaved, people of his inner circle whom He would've been very familiar with - Lazarus too was a friend. Christ knew He was going to resurrect Lazarus and didn't weep for Lazarus.
    Not acting straightaway is irrelevant, you don't get to understand God and neither does God have to jump through loopholes to please mere mortals who can't see the bigger picture. Pain, sickness and death are all temporary and relative. And God doesn't have to bend over backwards for the "gib me dis, gib me dat" crowd.
    So if a modern doctor tells the family of his terminally ill patient that the patient is dying and then breaks down in front of them despite knowing, that's a reasonable conduct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Indeed, be a Catholic, faith alone is not enough. Yet only through the son does one reach the father. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6
    If Jesus was sent by god, he wouldn't need to testify about himself. It'd be self-evident and obvious to people, even in their denial.

    I'd wager that the "I" here and elsewhere indicates all guides for life (i.e. Plato, Copernicus, Goethe, Nietzsche), great statesmen (i.e. Augustus, Aurelius, Frederick the Great), religious founders (i.e. Confucius, Buddha, Mohammed), and reformers (i.e. Martin Luther, Schopenhauer, Wagner).

    The Hindus talk about how the religious feeling found in all religions lead people to the deity. It's not just statues of Virgin Mary that are inexplicably preserved in the aftermath of natural disasters. It's not just the churches that experience and document "miracles" (levitation i.e. Giuseppe da Copertino). These are not the counterfeit "signs and wonders" of demons. It's not remotely possible for angels to "fall" and "rebel". Every nation has an angel which presides over it (Daniel 10).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    John 8:48: The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

    Christ ignores the first part of the question, but the answer is no. He answers they're dishonoring Him with their line of questioning. Christ's parents aren't Samaritan and Christ's home town is in Nazareth in Galilee. It's just the Jews being of little faith.
    Alfred Rosenberg mentions a 4th century preacher (Ephraem) who believed that Jesus was the son of a Syrian mother and Roman father. This Ephraem just happens to be a saint in Catholic canon. Was he dishonoring Jesus by this speculation? Then why reckon him as a saint? It's not doing harm to the Church to represent Jesus as a non-Jew.

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    The only Jesus Christ I know is the one in the Holy Scriptures. Millions of books have been written about him and none tell you the whole truth.
    To know him is to accept him as your Savior. I believe in an afterlife and I'm comfortable in my belief. I don't speculate...........

    "No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    Shepherds foster dependence. They are scarcely emancipators. Maybe they fend off wolves, but they don't teach their sheep to fend for themselves. What was the point of Jesus' expulsion of demons into pigs in Mark 5? Why did he make himself vulnerable here? And let's not forget about the teaching of the mustard seed and the faith that moves mountains.
    No takers?

    In almost every other instance, Jesus cast out the demon instantly. He even dispatched the powerful demon his disciples were having trouble casting out with relative ease. Yet with this demon, he starts off as one without authority. I am reminded of what allegedly happened with the Jewish sons of Sceva. Then he proceeds to ask the demon for it's name and the demon complied. Finally, the demon started to become worried and begged Jesus not to send him out of the countryside.

    Here we have an instance of Jesus as a man showing his disciples how to cast out demons without his authority. It seems pointless teaching them this if he was later going to confer onto them his authority. Nevertheless, what shepherd teaches his flock how to fend for themselves against wolves?

    It's unjust to represent Jesus this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    The only Jesus Christ I know is the one in the Holy Scriptures. Millions of books have been written about him and none tell you the whole truth.
    To know him is to accept him as your Savior. I believe in an afterlife and I'm comfortable in my belief. I don't speculate...........

    "No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6"
    So you're one of those people who believe that revelation is no longer found in modern experiences or "miracles", but the Bible only. How is that not considered atheism?

    John 9:1-3 cannot be used to justify the laziness and unwillingness to examine other works and phenomenon (i.e. homosexuality). For you will recall that even Luther turned to the heathen passages in his old age. The Catholic Church is replete with men who had read the works of Platonists and Pythagoreans, particularly Church Founders (i.e. Augustine). The German theologian Lucas Holste found rejuvenation in his Catholic faith after studying up on Plato.

    Why was this man in the example born blind? Partly hereditary, partly karma. John 9:3 is interpolated to throw the reader off-track, he misses the whole point of verse 2.

    His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    The proper response from Jesus would probably have been an attempt to neutralize the teaching of "sin", as "sin" is a misunderstanding of karma. Another example of distorted karma teaching: you only have to believe in a creed to be saved. Jesus would not have taught anything that paralyzes, that fosters inaction. Every truly great men upholds the principle of work.

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    This is why I stopped being a Christian. On top of there really not being much evidence Jesus or anyone associated with him existed, there are several verses in the NT that say "God is not a God of confusion", yet the bible is one of the most confusing books I've ever read and constantly contradicts itself. The Old Testament acts like some kind of monster also.

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    Jesus Full Moon Constellation

    The New Testament includes 12 constellations as disciples , as attempt to
    create a descendant of the Old Testament .

    Some kind of "End of the Times" feeling might have been around at that time .

    As to create some miracles , these were probably therefore necessary , since the
    Jewish state had become some kind of Ancient Egypt and Canaan with immigrants
    making themselves broad , growing pigs and other things , the "God" of the Old Testament
    had forbitten . The Hebrew people got sicknesses as described in the Old Testament
    were plagues to the Egyptians .


    The Jews were at that time of the New Testament in the positions of the Egyptians
    where their ancestors once leached upon ,
    and stole the land of the Canaanites .

    Now the Jews got stolen their land and other folks following the Roman Empire troops leached upon them .


    Therefore the wishful thinking for a "Messiah" was existent in parts of the Jewish population .


    As of today , the White Europeans are in the same situation , that Yussuf and Israel leach upon them ,
    and the native people are getting all kinds of sicknesses of the Ancient Egyptians .



    The "Messiah" David had been the constellation of Sagittarius , Goliath the Ophiochus , Scorpio the sling
    and the Milky Way the riverbed to pick up stones .

    Salomon is the Prosperia constellation "Capricornus" , Benjamin got a silver cup and five times more ,
    than the other "tribes" as constellations from Yussuf in his money or grain sack , when invading Egypt
    due to poverty .
    The 7-arm-lighter could be seen as the silver cup of Benjamin .


    Sagittarius is Naphtali, Scorpius is Asser as foot in oil .

    But there is another interpretation of Benjamin as Zebulon or Baalzebul for Capricornus ,
    since it is said about his "journeys" or travels : The merchant travells with his broad ship ,
    the Capricornus as Kogge or Cog of Salomo , who tried to create maritine merchtant connections.


    The New Testament likely sees the Land of Naftali and Zebulon as Sagittarius and Capricornus .

    Jesus might have been a sun Gemini full moon , and Judas Iskarioth the Gemini new moon .
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus
    The narrative says the Holy Spirit later descended upon him, which contradicts the notion that he was born with it.
    Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, it's the Holy Spirit whom impregnated Christ's mother - which is why she could be at the same time pregnant and a virgin. That's what I wanted to convey to you when discussing the father of the Lord - it's not a Roman soldier.

    Nowhere was it taught that Jesus was god. It always emphasized that he was a Son of God. This erroneous teaching arises from misinterpretation of his "I am" statements. The "I" doesn't even refer to Jesus.
    From the perspective of the Jews He did claim to be God and they were correct, that's why they wanted to kill Him. There was no doubt for Christ's contemporaries, ultimately. The Bible is full of verses pointing to Christ's divinity and there's no two ways of interpreting John 10:30: "I and the Father are one". Or also: "The Father is in me and I am in the Father" - John 10:36-39. "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.'" - John 17:1-5. "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me" - John 17:20-21.

    I'm no fan of quoting the Bible, I'm not a Protestant. My faith does not hinge upon what is written in the Bible and I don't think laymen like you and I should preoccupy ourselves with such a dangerous book. But you're forcing me to do that otherwise our conversation would be limited to me telling you that the Son is one part of the trinity and the trinity is God, it's dogma - there's no room for debate. I'm not the kind of guy to have this kind of conversation with, I'm just trying to humor you.

    That sounds monotonous. We read about how he amazed Mary and Joseph in his early visits to the Temple with his discourses with the Rabbis.
    Well, maybe Christ did come into contact with the community in Qumran, maybe He was familiar with the Essenes - but that's just more speculation. There's some overlap between what the Essenes believed and Christ's teachings, but there are also huge discrepancies. Early Christians have tried to fill in the gaps in the N.T. themselves, orthodox believers as much as gnostic churches - and they came up with many colorful tales. In the stories of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas the young Christ kills a few of his playmates who angered him greatly and more than once and on different occasions too. The IGoT contends that Christ needed to learn how to harness His power and learn to use it appropriately, for a nobler cause than killing other children who piss Him off.

    The subject of the biblical gaps interests me too - we don't know much about what Christ did on Earth after the resurrection either, although He seems to have been very active at that point. And that period may very well be more interesting than Christ's youth. Sadly, all the material we have on the gaps has been composed centuries after the life and times of Christ and are clearly the work of believers wanting answers and providing them themselves - and only one gnostic gospel can probably genuinely be attributed to the first century.

    Shepherds foster dependence. They are scarcely emancipators. Maybe they fend off wolves, but they don't teach their sheep to fend for themselves. What was the point of Jesus' expulsion of demons into pigs in Mark 5? Why did he make himself vulnerable here? And let's not forget about the teaching of the mustard seed and the faith that moves mountains.
    Christ isn't an emancipator (and hence not the communist some leftists and some non-Christian people of the far right make Him out to be). Nor are fathers or kings - that's not their traditional role. Children and sheep can't fend for themselves, they need to trust blindly - and to enter the eternal kingdom you must become like a child. Not sure what your issue is with Mark 5, the parable of the mustard seed or faith moving mountains.

    Here we have an instance of Jesus as a man showing his disciples how to cast out demons without his authority.
    Impossible, Christian exorcism without invoking divine authority is out of the question.

    So if a modern doctor tells the family of his terminally ill patient that the patient is dying and then breaks down in front of them despite knowing, that's a reasonable conduct?
    I don't know of any doctors capable of resurrecting the dead.

    If Jesus was sent by god, he wouldn't need to testify about himself. It'd be self-evident and obvious to people, even in their denial.
    Again, God does not need to behave according to your personal preferences - the challenge lies in believing despite not knowing, blind faith and trust is a necessity. And even if God came out in force, self-evident and obvious - there would always be the nay-sayers. Until the blessed day of the Final Judgement, of course.

    It's not remotely possible for angels to "fall" and "rebel".
    Christian theology says otherwise.

    Alfred Rosenberg mentions a 4th century preacher (Ephraem) who believed that Jesus was the son of a Syrian mother and Roman father. This Ephraem just happens to be a saint in Catholic canon. Was he dishonoring Jesus by this speculation? Then why reckon him as a saint? It's not doing harm to the Church to represent Jesus as a non-Jew.
    I didn't find online references to St. Ephraem believing or speculating as much, so I'm not sure there's an issue here. But Christ can not be the Messiah and of a Syrian mother and Roman father - there's a set of conditions which need to be met to be the Messiah. And if a single condition is not met, it's over. One of these conditions is belonging to the Davidian bloodline.

    Church Doctors can be wrong about something, however - and still be Church Doctors and saints - St. Augustine didn't believe in purgatory but the R.C.C. accepts the existence of purgatory, for example. Yet St. Ephraem would not have been canonized nor recognised as a Church Doctor if he believed something like Rosenberg suggested when he died.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    I am impressed with your answers. Thanks.

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