Die Alpenfestung - the Alpine Fortress

[Drömmarnas Stig]

Greetings!

I would like to discuss the mystic alpine fortress. What is myth, what reality? In summer 1944 Himmler and his SS started to build this huge fortress in the austrian alps. Without the knowledge and approval of our great Führer.

Was it treason or just a brilliant plan of Himmler? He wanted to withdraw with his SS and Waffen-SS divisions to Austria and negotiate peace conditions after the unholy alliance between USA/UK and Russia would have broken. Thus he held 10.000 important prisoners (jews and stuff like that) back from the extermination camps. They would function as hostages. Simultaneously he improved the infrastructure and industrial capacity of the region with the help of countless forced labourers.

It seems to have been just a matter of weeks, that prevented Himmler from accomplishing his masterpiece.
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Questions:

1. Did Himmler betray Hitler? If so, did he have the right to do so?

2. If the Alpenfestung would have been completed, what would have happened?

- Would the war just have lasted several months longer?
- Would the alliance have been broken?
- Would Himmler have been able to negotiate an armistice?
- If so, would USA/UK eventually have sided with Himmler (similar to post-war Western Germany) against the far greater threat of the east?
- Would Himmler then have been able to restore the Reich (pre-war borders) as a bulwark against Stalin and have allied with the Western powers?

Thanks for your time!

[Dr. Solar Wolff]

Well, lets go to your questions about the Alpenfestung first. Yes, Himmler was disloyal to Hitler in the end and in the end Hitler fired him. But Himmler did not construct the Alpenfestung (Alpine Redout) without Hilter's approval. In fact, Hitler appointed Col. Otto Skorzeny to prepare it during the final days of the war. Of course, it was not ready but is was under construction. The Italian engineer Renato Vesco describes it in one of his books from 1968. More recently several large underground facilities have been identified in the Alpine region of Austria and Bavaria. Also, according to Vesco, the Alpenfestung was to extend into Thuringia and include the Harz Mountains and the facilities at Jonastal (Jonas Valley). This arm of the Festung was to run North all the way to Nordhausen.

The person who was really in charge of preparation of the Alpenfestung was Dr. Ing. Hans Kammler. Kammler was an SS general, having risen rapidly through the ranks based on his ability. His ability was in constucting vast underground facilities in record time. It was from these facilities that the Reich was to continue the war effort in spite of Allied bombing. In the northwest Kammler built "Der Riese" (Poland), in the Czech Rep. he built three large complexes, Robert 1,2,3 (Weserwerk?). In Thuringia he built several vast underground complexes, similar to those at Der Riese in the Jonas Valley. He built "Zement", Gmunden am Traunsee in Austria for the production of the A-9/A-10 which never got quite started. This was a similar concept to the Nordhausen, V-1, V-2 complex. Zement was also to build V-2s but they would be launched from Zement on an assembly line basis. Also in Austria, Kammler built his own facility, "Quarz". This was probably to be used for atomic weapons work as was Der Riese. There were many, many more underground facilities for production of weaponry and synthetic oil. Many were smaller as were those near Prag/Pilsen but no less important. Also, Vesco describes vast, underground hangers and whole airports underground with bomb-proof roofs like the facilities in Western France as well as the U-boat facilities on the Atlantic coast of France.

Unfortunately for the Germans, Skorzeny found these facilities mostly in a state of unreadyness as he took over in March or April, 1945. He simply hung out in a local hotel until the Allies came. There was nothing else he could do.

The fact is that most SS units were concentrated in the South in March-April, 1945. Their defense of Jonastal was tremendous. Gebirgesjaegger units and G/B-SS units were also concentrated in the South. If the Alpenfestung had ever got up and running, a whole new series of weapons systems would have come on line to protect it in the mountain valleys from Allied penetration (sound cannon, Motorstoppmittel, infa-red anti aircraft missiles). The Festung would have produced jet fighters, rockets and atomic weaponry of various types and from this positon Hitler hoped he could force a settlement of the war.

The fact may have been that there were other ideas besides Hitler's. According to writer Thomas Mehner, Kammler, Speer and others intended to replace Hitler with a 4th Reich (Projekt Avalon) and do a deal with the Allies. This is why so many Wunderwaffe were never fielded. When Hitler finally found out, he went into a depression and failed to leave Berlin for Jonastal where he had a new and improved bunker. Betrayed, Hitler took his life.

[Chlodovech]

Questions:

1. Did Himmler betray Hitler? If so, did he have the right to do so?
[B]

Of course Himmler betrayed Hitler. He didn't have more or less the right to do so than von Stauffenberg. But at least Himmler could argue he stood a small chance of success (as in: he couldn't know exactly how little chance of success he had at the time, unlike von Stauffenberg); the possibility of war errupting between the U.S.S.R. and western allies as they linked up inside Germany seemed somewhat plausible back in 1945, it was Germany's last hope at any rate, because they thought it could lead to the Americans re-arming the Wehrmacht and teaming up against the Soviets together. The Western allies wouldn't have worked together with Himmler or any NS official in this scenario however. Himmler himself was finished, no matter what.

2. If the Alpenfestung would have been completed, what would have happened?

- Would the war just have lasted several months longer?

Sure, the allies would've had to resupply and regroup after their dash from the Rhine to the Elbe confronted with a weaponised Alps anyway. But in the end the Alpenfestung remained merely a propaganda stunt nor was there a force left to man it. There was no realistic chance of creating an Alpenfestung anymore when it was needed the most, in the the springtime of 1945. We can put the pipedream of factories deep inside the Alps mass producing wunderwaffe for the fight to rest, too - it's very fanciful. High end weaponry never produced in mass quantities in better times was not going to be mass produced at the worst of times, and with the allies slowly gaining control over more factories as their offensive progresses.

- Would the alliance have been broken?

No, it didn't truly break until well after the war, why would it in this scenario? All because of some dead enders living on borrowed time in the Alps? Since hostilities didn't commence when Soviet and allies troops ran into each other in our timeline, this counterfactual requires so many other conditions to be fulfilled first before war between the Soviets and allies becomes a possibility, perhaps Truman not being president for starters. The truth is most of America's civilian and military leadership didn't feel the way Patton did and the U.S.S.R. wanted to licked its wounds and consolidate its gains in Europe, while plotting a move against Japan.

- Would Himmler have been able to negotiate an armistice?

No, never. But if the allies and the Soviets had been at war, perhaps someone else could have, maybe a liberal or (proto-)christian democrat.

- If so, would USA/UK eventually have sided with Himmler (similar to post-war Western Germany) against the far greater threat of the east?

The mindset of the western allies/Soviets didn't allow for it. Amongst a ton of other reasons, Anglos are by nature quite messianistic and crusading & Stalin was pleased with his conquests. Also, no-one wanted the Germans to have any illusions this time about not being beaten on the battlefield but through betrayal, like after WW1. This time they wanted the Germans to feel what it's really like to lose a war and have your armed forces and country devastated, so they'd never forget and never think of national greatness again.

- Would Himmler then have been able to restore the Reich (pre-war borders) as a bulwark against Stalin and have allied with the Western powers?

Leaving Himmler out of the equation - I think it's likely the Germans would've kept the pre-war territory they lost in the East after the capitulation in 1945 in our timeline, provided the western allies & the Wehrmacht win the conflict with the U.S.S.R and at least chase the Soviets out of Eastern Europe.