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Thread: Today's Islam or 13th Century Europe?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    it’s perhaps best to just pass over what they did to those having sex outside of marriage!!!

    Any thoughts on this?
    Do you have any examples of what they did? The myths about sex in the Middle Ages die very hard. But in answer to your question, I'd choose 13th century Europe.
    “She could never be a saint, but she thought she could be a martyr if they killed her quick.”
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  3. #12
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    I would prefer 13th century Europe to any modern moslem country.

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    @Saxon Well said. One can't relegate Catholic Church atrocities to the people or say that Catholicism wasn't representing true Christianity. Most people in these cults are blind followers, the blood isn't on their hands. The same could be said for the so-called blood curse on the Jewish community. You can't indict a whole nation for atrocities. Catholicism is the logical consequence of interpreting the biblical quotes quite literally. No other sect comes closer in taking the whole Bible into account, with the peculiar exceptions of Calvinism and Puritanism which are Jewish.

    In a time where Western innovations were scarcely noticeable, Islamized Spain flourished when it came into contact with the writings of Aristotle and Plato. Today, Islam is generally more accessible and unlike Catholicism, which makes concessions with reluctance (except where it's core teachings are concerned. Let it not be said that Vatican II was a threat to Christian interests), Islam will readily adapt to modern scientific discoveries. Although it's regrettable that Turkey's brand of Islam is calculated to produce atheists since it's only using religion to advance political interests, just like the Catholic Church. Since the Jews aren't strictly Semites, the Arabs recognize them as a foreign element. Next to Germans, they are systematically demonized. It's in the interests of the Jewish community to brand Islamized Arabs as the greater threat to the West. The ME has no shortage of staunch and potential anti-Semitic allies and it's definitely in Germany's interests to make peace with the ME (but that doesn't mean giving immigrants a free pass).

    In the WW2 era, there was something dignified about the Arabic statesmen. This is a racial quality. Attaturk, King Saud, etc. furnish excellent examples. FDR, Churchill, Henry Morgenthau (a Jew!), Hitler, Hanna Reitsch, Otto Ernst Remer, Johannes von Leers, Degrelle, etc. all had positive reports for their Arabic comrades. In antiquity, a stark contrast was drawn between the Arabs and Jews. The Arabs readily submitted to unity (the directive to be one people) while the Jews violently rebelled.

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    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    If I had to choose, would I rather have been born in today’s Saudi Arabia or 13th century Europe?

    I think all things considered, I’d probably opt to live in one of today’s ‘backward’ Muslim countries rather than deal with all that cr*p from the tyrannical Catholic Church.
    These are two very different statements^^, Saudi Arabia is probably the most progressive and "modern" in many aspects, while most other islamic countries often dont even qualify for something worth to be called "country" LOL. Other modern islamic countries have been bombed to dust recently, because they were too progressive and successful, like Libya, or are on the verge to being 'redistributed' according to a plan that's on the table since 1957, like more or less "secular" Syria. Both apparently is not in the interest of the One World Order demagoges and warmongers who are interested in creating the Clash of Civilisations.

    But back to topic and your question, I think I'd say neither.
    In 13th century Europe I had long ago ended up on a stake, and in today's islamic shitholes they'd probably introduce the stake for me, so that's bad choice, for a woman in general and for someone like me who never can keep her mouth shut in particular.

    The question would be much more difficult to answer if the choice was between 13th century Europe or 13th century islamic states, because Islam was, beside that they often were Europe's enemies (just as often as they were allies of Europe), not always like it is today. After the battle of Vienna many low ranking Europeans ended up in islamic territory by their own choice because christian Europe was a shithole for the lower ranks while social ranks in islamic countries were more open. While the catholic church still burned antique books, islamic scholars were eager to collect as much as possible. The fundamentally anti-science stance is a relatively recent product and manifested only really with the establishment of Wahhabism (which is a topic of its own and goes deep into the Jewish roots of Islamic fundamentalism today), although Islam steadily declined ever since the end of the "Golden Age" in 1299, and ultimately, since the end of Moorish Spain in the 15th century, which was a shining example of Islamic culture, but also very different from many of its more eastern incarnations; a detail that should not be ignored when looking at Islam.

    But as said, I dont think I'd like to live in either. While our era is ripe with objectable things, it's also maybe the most interesting one to observe. And then I'm glad to be born a Germanic and a German. I wouldnt want to be anything else.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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  9. #15
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    13th century Europe, of course - and can I stay there? Virtually no migrants, no political correctness, no ZOG, you can lit a bonfire in your backyard without being arrested, clean air, nearly all continental Germanics live inside a single Reich and we expand eastwards - castles and forests everywhere, some of the wildest parties of the millennium, no feminism and women still dress well, no homo alphabet soup, no soul killing jobs + much more holidays ever year...

    Just drop me off and I promise to write you guys every day - Velvet can start a thread entitled "Chlod's expriences in Medieval Bruges and Ghent" - I'll take selfies of me with the townsfolk. And I'm in a plague-free zone. Being literate I'll be living the good life in a prosperous area as soon as I pick up the language, which should be easy, as Medieval Flemish doesn't differ much from modern Flemish, since Dutch is a conservative language. Perhaps I can even work for the Templars or the Teutonic Knights, go on a crusade and change history...! Or maybe... the inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan
    it’s perhaps best to just pass over what they did to those having sex outside of marriage!!!
    In an ideal world, adulterers should be punished, I suppose (not quite sure, but it's probably for the best). Then marriage will be taken seriously - cheating becomes a taboo fast if public humiliation or a taste of the whip becomes a factor. One more reason to sign up for SaxonPagan's time travel experiment. However, Medieval people were not prudish - and especially if you were a peasant living somewhere in the middle of nowhere you were considered very manly by your peers if you succeeded in cuckolding a guy by impregnating his wife.

    Quote Originally Posted by SP
    During the massacre at Béziers, for example, the besieging Catholic troops were unsure who were Catholics or Cathares within the city and so the order was given to just slaughter them all because “God will recognise his own!” … WHAT??
    The people responsible for the massacre of Béziers weren't part of the official crusade though, they were just rabble doing their own thing. Crushing the Albigensians was necessary too. Their gnostic, oriental religion in the guise of Christianity was not merely heresy, it did not affirm life and would've completely paralysed Europe for centuries to come in the same way Buddhism cripples Tibet.

    Quote Originally Posted by S.P.
    The Cathare genocide was the start of The Inquisition, which soon spread across Europe but took different forms.
    The inquisition was Europe's first attempt at real, modern justice - the inquisition evolved into the modern courts we are familiar with. Religious authorities in the Middle Ages didn't resort to the death penalty easily or fast, especially not in comparison to the secular authorities - not that many people died because of religious persecution in medieval times. And the Catholic church recognised four different types of magic, with "white magic" being of course causing the least offense. When caught the first time the punishment for that would've been going on a pilgrimage.

    Because of the enlightenment and Protestant propaganda the activities of the holy inquisition and the Medieval Church have been given a rap beyond what would be reasonable and correct, especially in the Anglosphere.
    "After the year 1900 people will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society." - St. Nilus, 430 AD

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    What did the Cathars do that was so bad it merited a slaughter?
    "This World We Cannot Tolerate,
    It's Time To Seal All Preachers Fate,
    And Hang Them All,
    From Odin's Tree!"
    Amon Amarth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    I don't get "Pagans" who hate Christianity, which is at least a traditional European faith and overwhelmingly a product of European thought, so much that they would prefer to live under the rules of a totally alien religion which has been our enemy for a thousand years. One could basically say: "Have fun paying that jizya and giving up your sons for the devshirme, dhimmi".
    It's not so much as hate, it's a knowing that Christianity is not right for us. In some parts of the world Christianity is crammed down your throat on minute by minute basis, this leads to retaliation. Take for example where I live, you can't drive a half a mile even in the country side without seeing some sort of Christian advertisement.

    Most Heathens have come to their belief by studying Christianity, most of us don't seek converts either. Folkish Heathenism should not hate our own folk as we see them as kin. We have a small alter in our home, and I know several of our neighbors would like to burn us on a stake for just having that alter.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    Juthunge: Like what, exactly?
    Alice: Do you have any examples of what they did?
    Regarding adultery (to which the above queries refer) there was a delightfully sadistic contraption known as the 'Breast Ripper', about which wiki says:

    The Breast Ripper, known in another form as the Iron Spider or simply The Spider, was a torture instrument mainly used on women who were accused of adultery or self-performed abortion. The instrument was designed to rip the breasts from a woman and was made from iron, which was usually heated.

    The Iron Spider would have been attached to the wall, and the woman's breasts were fixed onto the claws of the tool. The victim was then pulled away from the wall, tearing off her breasts. Another variant of this included spiked bars affixed slightly away from the wall. The victim would have been pulled along the bars until her breasts were ripped off.



    There's also this, relating to sex in general ...

    Celibacy was the ideal way to conduct one’s life and sex was condoned only as part of a marriage. Pre-marital or extra-marital sex was a serious risk, if you had to “scratch an itch.” Priests were required to report adulterers and fornicators (those having sex outside of marriage) and punishments could range from years of doing penance to death.

    But it wasn’t just the Church that disapproved of adultery and fornication, it was also noblemen, who wanted to be certain that any children of their marriage were, in fact, their own. One real life story of courtly love gone wrong involved King Phillip of France (also known as “Phillip the Fair”). He discovered that his three daughters were having intimate relations with some of his knights and had the men publicly disemboweled. His daughters were then sent to monasteries and one of them was possibly murdered.


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    What did the Cathars do that was so bad it merited a slaughter?
    Nothing whatsoever, other than offer an alternative to the oppressive theocracy of the day.

    The inquisition was Europe's first attempt at real, modern justice
    I didn't reply to your post, Chlod, because I assumed it to be satire.

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    @velvet : »While the catholic church still burned antique books, ...«

    Do you have examples of such occurrences ?


    The universities at that time needed books , and could hardly afford to burn books , me thinks ..?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university


    When it comes to torture , I remember Aalholm Slot on Lolland thirty years ago as museum , and there were a few torture devices and an iron Chastity Belt for females , while the housebound would be on some Crusade , in the cellar .
    Sadly , that museeum is apparently abandoned , and probably these devices are gone .
    https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aalholm
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

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