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Thread: Wendhorn, the Rune of Turning and the Eternal Return

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    Wendhorn, the Rune of Turning and the Eternal Return

    http://armanen.blogspot.com/2014/05/...d-eternal.html



    Wendhorn, the Rune of Turning and the Eternal Return






    The Swastika as I have remarked upon before is primarily a polar rather than a solar symbol although it has over the course of time and the wanderings of the Aryans taken on this latter and subsidiary meaning.

    The reason why it is so closely associated with the Aryan peoples is because of their original northern Thulean homeland, their Ur-heimat. Even when some of them migrated towards the southern hemisphere they took their lore and polar symbolism with them. This is why we see traces of the Swastika across many parts of the world.

    Connected to the Swastika or Fylfot is the Irminsul or Caduceus which sustains it:


    "If the swastika is the prime symbol of the Pole in its aspect as center of the celestial or terrestrial circle, then the caduceus is the prime symbol, in the West, of the World Axis that joins the two." (Arktos. The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism and Nazi Survival, Joscelyn Godwin, 1996.)

    The Caduceus came into the possession of the Greek God Hermes (Roman equivalent: Mercury) who was compared by the Romans to our own Woden. I feel that this is significant for Woden is the master of travel (like Hermes/Mercury) between the nine worlds via His steed, the eight-legged Sleipnir. As Woden Initiates we emulate Him and seek to attain similar powers in travelling between different worlds or dimensions-or states of consciousness which we attempt to do via the spiritual disciplines of Rune Yoga, self-hypnosis and meditation.

    It is no coincidence that the Aryan system of chakras or wheels are situated along the spinal column. It is via this column or world tree (Irminsul-YR-MAN-SOL) that we travel to experience new worlds (chakras/wheels) and attain varying states of consciousness and new experiences.

    Elizabeth Goldsmith in her Ancient Pagan Symbols likens the Caduceus to the sacred Tau symbol, which as we know is associated with the Hammer of Thunor. Eugene Goblet d' Alviella in his The Migration of Symbols (1894) refers to the presence of this symbol on the monuments of the Aryan Hittites. However the latter writer considers it to be primarily a solar rather than a polar symbol.

    Via the pole which connects the earth (Midgard) to Asgard the soul of the Arya travels prior to birth and after death of the physical body. This fact is represented symbolically by the 15th and 16th Runes of the Armanen Futhork, Man and Yr, representing life and death respectively. The fact that one follows the other in the Futhork sequence is significant in this regard.

    The Arya chooses the moment of his birth or rebirth and the circumstances surrounding it. It is not by pure chance. One single physical lifetime may not be enough for us to fulfill our task, our mission. The Einheriar understands this and for that reason has no fear of physical death. It holds no terrors for him.

    The Man Rune whilst signifying life, the shape of a man with outstretched arms to the Gods (the mode of prayer of Germanic man), is paradoxically more indicative of the soul which has left the physical body and is returning to Asgard, whilst the Yr Rune which signifies death ("Think about the end!") is yet the soul travelling down from Asgard to the awaiting physical incarnation on Midgard. This teaches us that our physical incarnation in life is really a form of death-"in the midst of life we are in death", whilst our true abode is most definitely in the incorruptible home of the Gods, Asgard.

    Here on Midgard we can see things only dimly, as through a veil but in Asgard we shall know and be known! In Virgil's Aenid the dead must drink from the waters of the river of forgetfullness, the river Lethe, in order that they can forget their previous incarnation in order to be reincarnated.Viktor Rydberg found a Germanic parallel to this myth as he writes in Teutonic Mythology Volume 1:


    "In Saxo we find an idea related to the antique Lethe myth, according to which the liquids and plants which belong to the lower world produce forgetfulness of the past. Therefore, Thorkil (Thorkillus) warns his companions not to eat or drink any of that which Gudmund offers them. In the Gudrun song (ii. 21, 22), and elsewhere, we meet with the same idea. (Chapter 50)"

    In Chapter 51 of the aforesaid work Rydberg identifies Mimir as being the same person as Gudmund.

    The Man and Yr Runes are stylistically combined in the Wendhorn Rune. Nigel Pennick in his The Complete Illustrated Guide to Runes states regarding this Rune that:


    "Everything goes in cycles, and Wendhorn reminds us that we must experience good and bad alike."

    Surely life and death is part of the cycle of continuous Arising-Becoming-Passing Away-New Arising? The Woden Initiate should consciously take this Rune to be a sign of his own eternal becoming. Pennick relates this Rune to the changing phases of the moon and silver is its associated colour. Guido von List in his Das Geimnis der Runen, translated by Dr Stephen Edred Flowers (Edred Thorsson) as The Secret of the Runes refers to Wendhorn:


    "The crescent moon as the 'Wendehorn' is, however, also the rune of Freya, who promotes childbirth."

    He does not however include the Wendhorn in his Armanen Futhork. The German verb wenden means to turn. One could thus consider it to be a Bindrune of Man and Yr and a most powerful one at that.

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    Nietzsche's theory of Eternal Return is wrong. Refuted by Herakleitos' maxim: Nothing is constant but change. Or as Robert Ley put it in Pesthauch der Welt (1944), Nothing perishes; everything is constantly changing. A similar expression can be found in the SS-Hauptamt publication Rassenpolitik.

    It's not either linear or cyclical, not just one or the other. Human beings develop with periods of improvement and periods of decline towards a higher goal, typically symbolized by a spiral. Cultures can be rendered irrecoverable within a decade. Germany holds all the trump cards for the time being, it's only a matter of how it will wield these that is uncertain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    Nietzsche's theory of Eternal Return is wrong. Refuted by Herakleitos' maxim: Nothing is constant but change. Or as Robert Ley put it in Pesthauch der Welt (1944), Nothing perishes; everything is constantly changing. A similar expression can be found in the SS-Hauptamt publication Rassenpolitik.

    It's not either linear or cyclical, not just one or the other. Human beings develop with periods of improvement and periods of decline towards a higher goal, typically symbolized by a spiral. Cultures can be rendered irrecoverable within a decade. Germany holds all the trump cards for the time being, it's only a matter of how it will wield these that is uncertain.
    Eternal Return does not necessarily imply (as you appear to have interpreted it) that nothing changes. Existence recurs in endless cycles of energy and matter as is apparent in Hindu philosophy and subsequently in Ariosophy and Armanenism. These are thus repeating stages of transformation. The Hindu, Greek and Germanic concept of the 4 Ages is a reflection of this within Indo-European mythologies. The Wendhorn symbolises the Listian concept of Arising-Becoming-Passing Away-New Arising.
    However those who have attained a certain measure of understanding and awakening can escape the necessity of Eternal Return. My article is more concerned with the application of this thinking to the individual rather than cultures and civilisations.
    I am unclear as to the meaning of your comments in respect of Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Eternal Return does not necessarily imply (as you appear to have interpreted it) that nothing changes. Existence recurs in endless cycles of energy and matter as is apparent in Hindu philosophy and subsequently in Ariosophy and Armanenism. These are thus repeating stages of transformation. The Hindu, Greek and Germanic concept of the 4 Ages is a reflection of this within Indo-European mythologies. The Wendhorn symbolises the Listian concept of Arising-Becoming-Passing Away-New Arising.
    However those who have attained a certain measure of understanding and awakening can escape the necessity of Eternal Return. My article is more concerned with the application of this thinking to the individual rather than cultures and civilisations.
    I am unclear as to the meaning of your comments in respect of Germany.
    It does imply that what is now is exactly the same as what was in the past. I am strongly reminded of Ecclesiastes 3.

    The concept (even if erroneous) may have possibly grown up in the Orient, but the Greeks (Pythagoreans, Stoics) were the first to put the concept into a rational context. The Oriental is at a disadvantage with his penchant for symbolism. The obsession with symbolism one finds in Christianity, paganism, Freemasonry, theosophy, etc. is regrettable. Everyone overlooks the hallmark of Western culture (facts and clarity).

    If "Eternal Return" were a law of necessity, then it'd be impossible for anyone to escape it and not even "god" could abolish it. Those who have truly "attained a certain measure of understanding and awakening" are still in this (physical) world, perhaps in exile...

    Why did the Greek gods assume the form of man in contrast to the universal spirit entities conceived by ancient Germans, Persians, Jews, and the indigenous peoples of America? Certainly there was a decline in Greece where their reverence was substituted with anthropomorphism, but originally, their gods would have been human beings who had attained a higher level of development. At least, this theory was proposed by Ignatius Donnelly. Directly related to this situation of "eternal return" is the dilemma that man has been unable to solve his own problems. Only a "god" can deliver man from his affliction was the conclusion Heidegger, Plato, and others arrived at. If this be the case, then it's simply a matter of calling back the gods to re-assume management of our affairs (not "listening" or waiting for their arrival).

    I am referring to the chthonic quality found in the German people, their close connection to the soil and to Nature.

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    Icarus It does imply that what is now is exactly the same as what was in the past. I am strongly reminded of Ecclesiastes 3.
    Why do you keep inserting biblical references into your posts when we are not even discussing the bible?

    Icarus
    The concept (even if erroneous) may have possibly grown up in the Orient, but the Greeks (Pythagoreans, Stoics) were the first to put the concept into a rational context. The Oriental is at a disadvantage with his penchant for symbolism. The obsession with symbolism one finds in Christianity, paganism, Freemasonry, theosophy, etc. is regrettable. Everyone overlooks the hallmark of Western culture (facts and clarity).
    What do you define as 'Western culture'? I am not defined by ancient Greece. It has little relevance when we are discussing Aryo-Germanic concepts and Runology. The north of Europe is a very different place from the south. Its peoples are different both racially and psychologically and so are their ways of viewing the world. There is an irrational quality in the Germanic soul which is characterised by the God Woden.

    Icarus
    If "Eternal Return" were a law of necessity, then it'd be impossible for anyone to escape it and not even "god" could abolish it. Those who have truly "attained a certain measure of understanding and awakening" are still in this (physical) world, perhaps in exile...
    I disagree. Even a man can escape this cycle as Julius Evola makes clear in his works, most especially The Doctrine of Awakening.

    Icarus
    Why did the Greek gods assume the form of man in contrast to the universal spirit entities conceived by ancient Germans, Persians, Jews, and the indigenous peoples of America? Certainly there was a decline in Greece where their reverence was substituted with anthropomorphism, but originally, their gods would have been human beings who had attained a higher level of development. At least, this theory was proposed by Ignatius Donnelly.
    Donnelly was a crank, albeit an interesting one. The ancient Teutons DID conceive their deities in anthropomorphic terms but only a Christian who does not understand our deities such as Saxo Grammaticus or Snorri Sturluson would make the case that they were simply deified advanced humans.


    Icarus Directly related to this situation of "eternal return" is the dilemma that man has been unable to solve his own problems. Only a "god" can deliver man from his affliction was the conclusion Heidegger, Plato, and others arrived at. If this be the case, then it's simply a matter of calling back the gods to re-assume management of our affairs (not "listening" or waiting for their arrival).
    I do not need Gods to 'manage my affairs'. That is quite a simplistic and very CHRISTIAN way of viewing the relationship between a people and their Gods. The honouring of the Gods through rites is part of a process of participating in the renewal of creation. Heathens do not view their Gods in the way that followers of the Abrahamic religions view their desert demon.

    Icarus I am referring to the chthonic quality found in the German people, their close connection to the soil and to Nature.
    A 'quality' that has been largely lost thanks to Christianisation and viewing the planet as a mere 'product' or 'resource' to be exploited. The ancient Teutons were not unique in this regard but this way of viewing the earth was part of the world view of most if not all pre-Christianised peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Why do you keep inserting biblical references into your posts when we are not even discussing the bible?
    Because these notions aren't foreign to the Bible, they were stolen from other nations. The gravitational pull of the Bible which has produced countless mystics and seers is due to truths about this world being mingled with lies to produce monstrous myths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    What do you define as 'Western culture'?
    What do I define as "Western culture"? Certainly not Western civilization with it's barbarism, social injustices, slavery, democratic complacency, exploitation of natural resources, and contempt for other races. These were all prevalent phenomenon even before Christianity's advent. Hitler did not represent any of that, it was FDR/Churchill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I am not defined by ancient Greece. It has little relevance when we are discussing Aryo-Germanic concepts and Runology.
    So the great Goethe and Schiller who lent their ears to Greece weren't heathen? Or the Copernicans who inclined towards the Greek view of the earth revolving around the Sun weren't heathen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The north of Europe is a very different place from the south. Its peoples are different both racially and psychologically and so are their ways of viewing the world.
    That was not always the case. The people of the Mediterranean were once the progenitors of Western culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    There is an irrational quality in the Germanic soul which is characterised by the God Woden.
    The instability in their political life is the result of their much lauded "philosophers" (Hegel, Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Marx) doing all they could do confuse them. Schopenhauer and Nietzsche were the first to break away from this tendency and merit the title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I disagree. Even a man can escape this cycle as Julius Evola makes clear in his works, most especially The Doctrine of Awakening.
    Can you provide citations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Donnelly was a crank, albeit an interesting one. The ancient Teutons DID conceive their deities in anthropomorphic terms but only a Christian who does not understand our deities such as Saxo Grammaticus or Snorri Sturluson would make the case that they were simply deified advanced humans.
    So that's your game? Undermine the credibility of an author by calling them eccentric. Then you put forth your assertion without any supporting arguments, just an accusation. I'm sure with enough time and study, I could dig up some prominent, non-Christian German individuals who adhered to the view that the gods were simply deified advanced humans. In any case, I don't identify as a Christian.

    For the time being, explain Xenophanes' arguments against anthropomorphism, which were later reiterated by Hitler.

    You'll note that the 'ragna' in ragnarok can mean rulers, judges, counselors. This is what was intended in Exodus 22:28 and Psalm 82:6.

    "At last the time draws near when the existing universe must perish and the gods must succumb before higher powers." This is identical to what Plato laid down in Statesman. In Hinduism, the gods are spoken of as arms , administrators and they are identified with Devas (which correspond to the angels in Christian theology). IIRC there were Hindu passages which talk about the arms of god being called back or retreating from their spheres.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I do not need Gods to 'manage my affairs'. That is quite a simplistic and very CHRISTIAN way of viewing the relationship between a people and their Gods. The honouring of the Gods through rites is part of a process of participating in the renewal of creation. Heathens do not view their Gods in the way that followers of the Abrahamic religions view their desert demon.
    "I do not need gods to 'manage my affairs.'" This attitude is precisely why we are all in this situation in the first place. Mankind has been left to manage it's own affairs and it has colossally failed. The transition between hierarchy, democracy, and communism (as noted by Plato in The Republic) has been a never ending cycle. I am sitting aloof from the struggle watching people assert that this or that system is the answer, it just hasn't had the opportunity, it hasn't been implemented yet, etc. They overlook that any system (even one as poisonous as Marxism) will do if the people improve enough. But the people are exceptionally resistant to change. They uphold the status quo and it's authorities. All tried and true reformers necessarily end up arriving at the conclusion that mankind's problems are unsolvable by human beings.

    So basically, you put your god at a distance, perhaps enclosed by walls and on a pedestal like that of the Christians. The only functions apparently dropped are the use of intermediaries (priests) and the fearful approach to the deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    A 'quality' that has been largely lost thanks to Christianisation and viewing the planet as a mere 'product' or 'resource' to be exploited. The ancient Teutons were not unique in this regard but this way of viewing the earth was part of the world view of most if not all pre-Christianised peoples.
    Except Christianity never succeeded in throwing off the cultural creative ability. Even the great Jewish poet Heinrich Heine admitted it. Christianity would instead end up being overcome by the creativeness and transformed into a religion that was less revolting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    That was not always the case. The people of the Mediterranean were once the progenitors of Western culture.
    It was an imposition of foreign (and in many aspects, incompatible) culture in waves upon the northern Europeans, and specially the alleged Greek source of "western culture" is a very recent product of invention and propaganda, to promote "democracy" with. There was no Greece ever since the Romans had conquered them (and even then there was no "Greece", only a collection of city states which, again allegedly, shared a common culture, which wasnt really the case either), then there was the rediscovering of Greek scholars in the Renaissance, and while it was and partly still is common in higher education to learn ancient Greek and read Socrates (although most I guess get their quotes from Socrates for Dummies anyway), it's not that common, nor is it influential or shaping, and modern Greece is an outright modern propaganda reinvention to promote the idea of a 2000 years old "European democracy".

    It's the same with the claim that the church had continued Roman civilisation, which is as untrue as it gets, the church was not concerned with "civilisation", the church was concerned with ora et labora to pay the luxury of the Vatican and expand influence over the now impoverished peasants. No new aquaeduct for more than 1000 years from the fall of the Roman empire until the industrial revolution and the beginning urbanisation. Public bath houses were closed, streets werent built anymore, much of the technology of the Romans was reinvented the hard way post Enlightenment and early industrialisation, knowledge was deemed dangerous, they burnt down the library of Alexandria and outlawed all philosophy except for bible study. Charlemagne, often praised for "introducing common schooling", did of course nothing of the sort, he imposed Latin on peasant kids loaded off at the stairs of monasteries, to be allowed in you had to be christian, leave all your possession to the monastery and then learned to read and hand copy the bible. Pre-Gutenberg mass production of a book that had nothing to do with us. There was no common schooling. But it's promoted along with the 2000 years of democracy, making it up to look as if there was a "continued" culture to sell nonsense to the people.

    If you want to be naive, you could call it "retrospective wishful thinking"...
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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    Icarus Because these notions aren't foreign to the Bible, they were stolen from other nations. The gravitational pull of the Bible which has produced countless mystics and seers is due to truths about this world being mingled with lies to produce monstrous myths.
    I am well aware that the Bible contains a great deal of plagiarism and much of that is indeed from Indo-European sources but it is tainted and corrupt. You quote from it frequently but thus far I have not seen you quote from the Eddas. You appear to have a highly Christianised world view, whether you are a Christian or not.

    What do I define as "Western culture"? Certainly not Western civilization with it's barbarism, social injustices, slavery, democratic complacency, exploitation of natural resources, and contempt for other races.
    Well said; that is something which we can definitely agree on.

    These were all prevalent phenomenon even before Christianity's advent. Hitler did not represent any of that, it was FDR/Churchill.
    I would suggest that it predates those characters.

    Icarus
    So the great Goethe and Schiller who lent their ears to Greece weren't heathen? Or the Copernicans who inclined towards the Greek view of the earth revolving around the Sun weren't heathen?
    Goethe was a Freemason and admired Christianity. He does not appear in the slightest to have any knowledge or interest in Germanic religion and mythology. He was thus not a heathen in this sense but vaguely pantheistic and humanist. Schiller likewise was heavily influenced by Christianity from his youth upwards and is also rumoured to have been a Freemason.

    Icarus
    That was not always the case. The people of the Mediterranean were once the progenitors of Western culture.
    The culture of the Teuton is a northern, not a western culture with its emphasis on the south. THAT has nothing to do with me and I reject it utterly as alien and unwelcome.


    Icarus
    The instability in their political life is the result of their much lauded "philosophers" (Hegel, Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Marx) doing all they could do confuse them. Schopenhauer and Nietzsche were the first to break away from this tendency and merit the title.
    You are only partially correct. Woden is the embodiment of the Germanic inner life, the soul if you want to call it that and this irrationality will obviously be present in the great thinkers and philosophers of Germany. Once you throw off the thin veneer of 'civilisation' you will find the barbarian beneath, barely tamed or tameable. Heinrich Heine knew enough about the German character to realise this: http://aryan-myth-and-metahistory.bl...-germanic.html

    Icarus
    Can you provide citations?
    It permeates the whole work. I am not going to spend literally days reading this just to reply to one of your posts. I simply recommend that you obtain a copy of this book. I think that you will find it impressive. It certainly affected me.

    Icarus So that's your game? Undermine the credibility of an author by calling them eccentric. Then you put forth your assertion without any supporting arguments, just an accusation. I'm sure with enough time and study, I could dig up some prominent, non-Christian German individuals who adhered to the view that the gods were simply deified advanced humans. In any case, I don't identify as a Christian.
    Ignatius Donnelly was a pseudo-scientist and a pseudo-historian. I enjoyed reading his Atlantis but found it absolutely worthless. Great fiction though but don't take it seriously! Yes I am sure that you could find many prominent individuals who regarded the Gods in this way and this concept, Euhemrism is a Greek one. We Teutons do not conceive of our Gods in this way. Woden in a very real sense is the creator of the Germanic peoples. He is not simply a deified human. Euhemerism is an indication of degeneracy in belief.

    Icarus For the time being, explain Xenophanes' arguments against anthropomorphism, which were later reiterated by Hitler.
    Let me reiterate my position: I reject the corrupt southern and non-Germanic world view. It has no relevance for me and I see no reason to discuss it. I am also not interested in anything that Hitler has to say on the subject. Despite his poetry and his tolerance of Himmler's Ahnenerbe he had no apparent interest in our mythology. He is not relevant in any way to the discussion although you appear to be obsessed by the man.

    Icarus
    You'll note that the 'ragna' in ragnarok can mean rulers, judges, counselors. This is what was intended in Exodus 22:28 and Psalm 82:6.
    Here you go again, bringing Jewish scriptures into a discussion about the holy Runes. You are derailing this thread about the Wendhorn Rune to discuss your two pet subjects-Hitler and the Jewish Bible!

    Icarus "At last the time draws near when the existing universe must perish and the gods must succumb before higher powers." This is identical to what Plato laid down in Statesman. In Hinduism, the gods are spoken of as arms , administrators and they are identified with Devas (which correspond to the angels in Christian theology). IIRC there were Hindu passages which talk about the arms of god being called back or retreating from their spheres.
    What on earth has any of this to do with Runes?

    Icarus
    "I do not need gods to 'manage my affairs.'" This attitude is precisely why we are all in this situation in the first place. Mankind has been left to manage it's own affairs and it has colossally failed. The transition between hierarchy, democracy, and communism (as noted by Plato in The Republic) has been a never ending cycle.
    Your world view appears to be rooted in Judaeo-Christianity, not Germanic heathenism. You are also derailing this thread.

    Icarus I am sitting aloof from the struggle watching people assert that this or that system is the answer, it just hasn't had the opportunity, it hasn't been implemented yet, etc. They overlook that any system (even one as poisonous as Marxism) will do if the people improve enough. But the people are exceptionally resistant to change. They uphold the status quo and it's authorities. All tried and true reformers necessarily end up arriving at the conclusion that mankind's problems are unsolvable by human beings.
    Irrelevant.

    Icarus So basically, you put your god at a distance, perhaps enclosed by walls and on a pedestal like that of the Christians. The only functions apparently dropped are the use of intermediaries (priests) and the fearful approach to the deity.
    Absolute cobblers! You know nothing about my relationship with my Gods to form any kind of informed or relevant comment. Stop derailing this thread!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I am well aware that the Bible contains a great deal of plagiarism and much of that is indeed from Indo-European sources but it is tainted and corrupt. You quote from it frequently but thus far I have not seen you quote from the Eddas.
    You seem to forget that there are Christian visitors who might be open to other ideas. As far as I'm aware, this is not a closed forum section. I'm of the belief that purification of the Bible is a necessary step for exposing Jewish corruption.

    There's a lot I haven't quoted from on here. Eddas? If you insist.

    “Neither sand nor sea, nor cold waves, nor earth
    were to be found. There was neither heaven above,
    nor grass anywhere, there was nothing but Ginnungagap [primordial void].”

    From a superficial glance, this is identical to Genesis' creation out of nothing.

    “Soon Bur’s sons heaved up the earth.
    They shaped Midgard, the earth.”

    Yet the word “shape” is used over “create”, which suggests that “the earth” preexisted. “Heaved up the earth” suggests relocation, resettlement, otherwise “uproot” would've been more suitable.

    Thales of Miletus taught that water (or moisture) was the first principle, the primary cause of all things, leading him to declare that “the earth rests on water” and "all things are full of gods". Aristotle and John Burnet argued that this "theory" was based on biological and palaeontological observations.

    Julian built upon this theory in his interpretation of Genesis 1:2 (and he was by no means sympathetic to Christianity):

    "It follows that, 'according to Moses', God is the creator of nothing that is incorporeal, but is only the disposer of matter that already existed. For the words, 'And the earth was invisible and without form' can only mean that he regards the wet and dry substance as the original matter and that he introduces God as the disposer of this matter." (Against the Galileans)

    It could be argued that Hans Hoerbiger's theory of ice, not water, as the first principle could be a homage to this theory. Even if Hoerbiger was wrong about some things (as the lunar landings show), this aspect at least deserves to be considered.

    And yet you say this “corrupted” and “southern” worldview is somehow incompatible. So then is Nietzsche (who was declared by Coudenhove-Kalergi as the only non-Jewish ethicist in Europe) with his pre-Socratic Hellenism incompatible with Germanic paganism? There is sufficient testimony that Hitler's movement was closer to Nietzsche than Schopenhauer. Anthony M. Ludovici, a disciple of Nietzsche and who visited Hitler's Germany, can attest to that.

    I have only shed what is unsuitable (pity ethics, pacifism, excess humanism). It'd be a mistake to deride and reject altruism, sympathy, compassion, etc. which are found among animals. Why did Nietzsche go insane despite his instinctive recognition of Christianity as a foreign belief system?

    The meaning and purpose of revolutions cannot be to tear down the whole building, but to take away what has not been well fitted into it or is unsuitable, and to fill in the gap thus caused, after which the main construction of the building will be carried on. Only thus will it be possible to talk of human progress, for otherwise the world would never be free of chaos, since each generation would feel entitled to reject the past, and to destroy all the work of the past, as the necessary preliminary to any new work of its own. - Mein Kampf
    Nietzsche lacked a firm foundation to build upon and ended up overturning all morality, hence enabling the Bolsheviks to appropriate him for their cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You appear to have a highly Christianised world view, whether you are a Christian or not.
    I have actually gone to great lengths to distance Hitler from Christianity and I sincerely wish to bring about it's demise. But it needs to be done the right way, with precision and without sentimentality. What will cause the complete dissolution of Christianity is rooted in the Copernican revolution and it's discoveries and this is the only suitable foundation to build it upon.

    The way the Germanic heathenism goes about it is sheer folly. What worthy substitute do you have to offer for the German masses and how does it satisfy their need? How do you even hope to win over the Protestant majority which clings to Jewish leadership? The fact that Hitler succeeded in converting his contemporary Protestants to anti-Semitism is a feat in itself.

    The various substitutes that have been offered have not shown any results that might warrant us in thinking that they might usefully replace the existing denominations, but if religious teaching and religious faith are to be accepted by the broad masses as active forces in their lives, then the absolute authority of the doctrines of faith must be the foundation of all reality. - Mein Kampf
    This was not merely lip service to the Catholic Church. His praise for the Church's organization and methods is well-documented.

    “This [authority and strength as the necessary substitute of reason for the masses] was the unanimous opinion of all the ancient and modern law-makers, and even the heathens acknowledge this truth. This was even the opinion of Machiavelli, whose testimony is certainly above suspicion.” (Adam Weishaupt, Diogenes' Lamp)

    Rites, rituals, customs, precepts, etc. are just the drapery, window dressing of a building/system, they are non-essential. “For lawgivers have succeeded in adding but little by their discipline to the natural characters and aptitudes of men.” (Against the Galileans)
    Especially since they failed to effects changes pertaining to both the physical body and "spirit" (consciousness), they neglected to distribute proper development for both. Hence with the Orientals, there is a profound love for metaphysics, almost instinctive, but also a disposition to lying. The ancient Germans were not so much dissimilar to this, as seen in the testimony of Velleius Paterculus. The unsuitable climate played a larger role than Christianity in their delayed development, it is for that reason that Hitler believed the cultural creative ability was always with the German people. Proof of this can be seen in the ennoblement of Christianity by German humanists. They have largely succeeded in taking what is foreign and alien to them and shaping it into a tolerable form that's less revolting. The Japanese proceeded similarly, for which Hitler was willing to confer onto them the title of "honorary Aryan". Even Islam, which Hitler privately preferred, would have ended up usurped by the German element. Hence, it didn't matter to Hitler which ideology triumphs in the long run, as long as the Germans are the ones to master and disseminate the system.

    As regards the future of the world, it does not matter which of the two triumphs, the Catholic or the Protestant faith, but it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes. - Mein Kampf

    Again, the NS maxim “Healthy mind in a healthy body” is relevant. “ There must be a certain balance between mind and body. A degenerate body is not more beautiful because it houses a radiant spirit.” (Mein Kampf) If the content of a building (Christianity) is lacking and a new one (Germanic heathenism) can't be immediately constructed, then fill the already existing system with something better. A temporary yet necessary measure. After the substitute has been sufficiently prepared, then the old building can be demolished. "New wine into new wineskins."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Goethe was a Freemason and admired Christianity. He does not appear in the slightest to have any knowledge or interest in Germanic religion and mythology. He was thus not a heathen in this sense but vaguely pantheistic and humanist. Schiller likewise was heavily influenced by Christianity from his youth upwards and is also rumoured to have been a Freemason.
    Freemasonry before the 1700s was different from modern, political Freemasonry.
    So Goethe, who preceded Darwin and Spencer in their discoveries pertaining to evolution, was a merit of Christianity? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

    "Ins Innre der Natur dringt kein erschaffner Geist" has been attributed to Goethe, which is often quoted out of context and misconstrued to argue that Goethe agreed with Kant. This site (which incidentally promotes anthrosophy) makes the case that it meant the exact opposite. Goethe's use of this expression was different from Kant's. Here Goethe has made a veiled criticism of Kant (who was steeped in Jewish-Christian ethics as Schopenhauer has revealed elsewhere. Coudenhove-Kalergi went so far as to declare Kant as a spiritual Jew by choice). Ernst Haeckel cautioned against taking Goethe's conversations with Eckermann (in which there is apparent praise for Kant) for granted.

    For the individuals are fleeting as the water in the brook ; the Ideas, on the contrary, are permanent, like its eddies : but the exhaustion of the water would also do away with the eddies. We would have to stop at this unintelligible view if nature were known to us only from without, thus were given us merely objectively, and we accepted it as it is comprehended by knowledge, and also as sprung from knowledge, i.e., in the sphere of the idea, and were therefore obliged to confine ourselves to this province in solving it.
    But the case is otherwise, and a glance at any rate is afforded us into the interior of nature; inasmuch as this is nothing else than our own inner being, which is precisely where nature, arrived at the highest grade to which its striving could work itself up, is now by the light of knowledge found directly in self-consciousness. - Schopenhauer
    As for Schiller, his Christianity could be described as a thin veneer, if he were truly nationalistic (which his works demonstrate abundantly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You are only partially correct. Woden is the embodiment of the Germanic inner life, the soul if you want to call it that and this irrationality will obviously be present in the great thinkers and philosophers of Germany. Once you throw off the thin veneer of 'civilisation' you will find the barbarian beneath, barely tamed or tameable. Heinrich Heine knew enough about the German character to realise this: http://aryan-myth-and-metahistory.bl...-germanic.html
    So you regard a German Jew (Heine) and a self-proclaimed "genius" as a prophet/seer, perhaps more than the ones produced by Catholic Bavaria? Well his “prophecy” obviously hasn't come true yet. Hitler's Germany did not represent the complete overthrowing of Christianity since they tried to use it as a bulwark against Bolshevism. Hitler would have been content with keeping the Church out of politics (it'd die out of itself or regress to it's originally intended form as a teaching institute), although as a youth he wanted to blow it up with dynamite (metaphorically).

    Heine's warning was not against the rise of Hitler, but against the rise of a type of Germanic paganism that was bereft of regard for tradition or danger, just barbarians or anarchists running rampant and getting their vengeance on the world. If this should come about, then the rehabilitation of the German people will be made totally impossible. In other words, you are aiding the Jews in their mad desire to represent Germans as the eternal villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Ignatius Donnelly was a pseudo-scientist and a pseudo-historian. I enjoyed reading his Atlantis but found it absolutely worthless. Great fiction though but don't take it seriously! Yes I am sure that you could find many prominent individuals who regarded the Gods in this way and this concept, Euhemrism is a Greek one. We Teutons do not conceive of our Gods in this way. Woden in a very real sense is the creator of the Germanic peoples. He is not simply a deified human. Euhemerism is an indication of degeneracy in belief.
    Manly P. Hall points out that the myths of many nations contain accounts of gods who "came out of the sea." Aristotle noted similarly: "Some think that even the ancients who lived long before the present generation, and first framed accounts of the gods, had a similar view of nature; for they made Ocean and Tethys the parents of creation, and described the oath of the gods as being by water, to which they give the name of Styx; for what is oldest is most honourable, and the most honourable thing is that by which one swears."

    Also, I wouldn't be throwing around the word "worthless" so carelessly.

    One has good grounds to be suspicious in regard to any new idea, or any doctrine or philosophy, any political or economical movement, which tries to deny everything that the past has produced or to present it as inferior and worthless. Such an antipathy is usually due to a sense of inferiority or to malicious intention. - Mein Kampf
    Btw one of Donnelly's critics, Gordon Stein, was a Jew.

    The fact that dogmatic Christians once latched onto this argument against paganism doesn't detract from it's plausibility. The pagans also weaponized Apollonius of Tyana, who was not so dissimilar from Jesus with his views on socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Let me reiterate my position: I reject the corrupt southern and non-Germanic world view. It has no relevance for me and I see no reason to discuss it. I am also not interested in anything that Hitler has to say on the subject. Despite his poetry and his tolerance of Himmler's Ahnenerbe he had no apparent interest in our mythology. He is not relevant in any way to the discussion although you appear to be obsessed by the man.
    So Kubizek was lying about him being obsessed with specifically German myths in his youth?

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    Icarus You seem to forget that there are Christian visitors who might be open to other ideas. As far as I'm aware, this is not a closed forum section. I'm of the belief that purification of the Bible is a necessary step for exposing Jewish corruption.
    Fine, then create a separate thread to discuss these issues but this thread and sub forum are concerned with the Runes. You are off topic and consequently you are derailing this thread.


    Icarus The way the Germanic heathenism goes about it is sheer folly. What worthy substitute do you have to offer for the German masses and how does it satisfy their need? How do you even hope to win over the Protestant majority which clings to Jewish leadership? The fact that Hitler succeeded in converting his contemporary Protestants to anti-Semitism is a feat in itself.
    Did not Hitler say "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."? (Hitler's Table Talk, 14/10/41) One does not have to do anything to see its demise. Church attendance statistics in England indicate that it is experiencing its death rattle. We heathens seek no converts and could not care less what deities people follow so long as they do not interfere with our rights. As long as a people or a proportion of a people remember and honour their ancestral Gods that people will never die.

    Icarus
    Rites, rituals, customs, precepts, etc. are just the drapery, window dressing of a building/system, they are non-essential. “For lawgivers have succeeded in adding but little by their discipline to the natural characters and aptitudes of men.” (Against the Galileans)
    This is not how followers of Germanic heathenism view the carrying out of rites for they are considered as essential in order to maintain the balance between the worlds.
    http://aryan-myth-and-metahistory.bl...nic-rites.html
    "
    The purpose of ritual in Germanic heathenism is to not repeat dead rituals but to create something new in the subjective[internal] and objective[external] worlds.By participating in our wheel of the year rites in the cosmic rhythm of the seasons we are in microcosm reflecting the macrocosm; as above, so below. Vilhelm Gronbech in
    The Culture of the Teutons Volumes 1 and 2
    states:

    "This is the reason why all words and acts are frought with infinite consequence; the space is filled with creation, and every act gives birth to events to come."[Page 356]

    By engaging in our rites we are participating in an act of creation.

    "This reiteration or renovation, as we should call it, is not a repetition of an act primarily and for all time created years or ages ago. The present re-acting is as primary, as original as the very first acting; and the participants are not witnesses to the deed of some hero or god, not reproducers who revive the deed, but simply and literally the original heroes who send fateful deeds into the world, whether it be battles long ago or the creation of Middle-garth. In the recreation of the legend, in the ceremonial act, the earth is prepared for the living of man....."[Page 358]"


    Icarus
    So you regard a German Jew (Heine) and a self-proclaimed "genius" as a prophet/seer, perhaps more than the ones produced by Catholic Bavaria? Well his “prophecy” obviously hasn't come true yet. Heine's warning was not against the rise of Hitler, but against the rise of a type of Germanic paganism that was bereft of regard for tradition or danger, just barbarians or anarchists running rampant and getting their vengeance on the world. If this should come about, then the rehabilitation of the German people will be made totally impossible. In other words, you are aiding the Jews in their mad desire to represent Germans as the eternal villain.
    I wrote about Heine's prophecy on my blog because he showed incredible insight into the cosmic forces which were at work in Germany and the German Collective Unconscious or Blood memory.

    I refer to the relevant parts of my blog post:


    "(he will).....be terrible because he will appear in alliance with the primitive powers of nature, able to evoke the demonic energies of old German Pantheism-which there will awake in him that Battle-madness which we find among the ancient Teutonic races who fought neither to kill nor conquer, but for the very love of fighting itself.
    ".......then will come crashing and roaring forth the wild madness of the old champions, the insane berserker rage, of which Northern poets say and sing....The old stone gods will rise from long forgotten ruin, and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor, leaping to life, with his giant hammer, will smash the Gothic cathedrals.
    "German thunder is indeed German, and not in a hurry, and it comes rolling slowly onward; but it will, and when ye hear the crash as naught crashed before in the whole history of the world, then know that der Deutsche Donner, our German Thunder, has at last hit the mark....There will be played in Germany a drama compared to which the French Revolution will only be an innocent child.
    "But once blood again begins coursing in the veins of the German people, once they again feel their heart beating, no longer will they listen to the pious chatter of the Bavarian hypocrites, or to the mystic murmours of the Swabian imbeciles; their ear will only hear the great voice of one man.
    "Who is this man? He is the man whom the German people awaits, the man who will turn to them their lives and their happiness-the happiness and the life they have so longed for in their dreams. How much longer will you wait-you whom our old people have prophesied with burning desire-you for whom youth waits with so much impatience-you who carry the divine sceptre of liberty, and the imperial crown with the cross."

    "This prophecy was published 99 years before the beginning of the Third Reich. Sometimes what one awaits and expects does not happen during a single life span but happen it will. We await the Final Avatar of the Germanic peoples to appear and this time He will succeed. The final paragraph of the prophecy refers to "the divine sceptre of liberty, and the imperial crown with the cross." This is a reference to the possession of the imperial insignia of the First Reich will lasted almost 1000 years. The insignia includes the spear known as the 'Spear of Longinus' which we relate to the spear owned by Parsifal and the Gungnir of Woden. "


    Icarus So Kubizek was lying about him being obsessed with specifically German myths in his youth?
    You compound one error with another don't you? WHERE did I say that Kubizek was 'lying'? I was not discussing Hitler's interest or obsession with 'German myths' but his interest in the Ariosophy of Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels.

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