View Poll Results: Can the Existence of God be Proven?

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  • Yes the Existence of God can be proven.

    8 22.22%
  • No the Existence of God can't be proven.

    18 50.00%
  • There is no valid answer to this question.

    10 27.78%
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Thread: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

  1. #71
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    The difference between claims of goblins floating around in the air and the God hypothesis is that the former is just a random claim whereas the latter is a hypothetical answer on an existing question but again, it's called BELIEF and NOT TRUTH.

    Silly people trying to find a logical and scientific answer on every question
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    The difference between claims of goblins floating around in the air and the God hypothesis is that the former is just a random claim whereas the latter is a hypothetical answer on an existing question but again, it's called BELIEF and NOT TRUTH.

    "Can any more foolish contradiction be imagined than this, to want to demonstrate that an individual human being is God? That an individual human being is God, that is, claims to be God, is indeed the offense in an eminent sense. But what is the offense, that which offends? That which conflicts with all (human) reason... Can one, then, make that which conflicts with all reason into the rational-actual? Certainly not, unless one wants to contradict oneself. One can "demonstrate" only that which contradicts with reason. The demonstrations for the divinity of Christ that Scripture sets forth -- his miracles, his resurrection from the dead, his ascension -- are indeed only for faith, that is, they are not "demonstrations." Neither do they want to demonstrate that all this is in complete harmony with reason; on the contrary, they want to demonstrate that it conflicts with reason and consequently is the object of faith."
    --Søren Kierkegaard Practice in Christianity, No. 1, The Halt, p. 26

  3. #73
    Senior Member SineNomine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    The difference between claims of goblins floating around in the air and the God hypothesis is that the former is just a random claim whereas the latter is a hypothetical answer on an existing question but again, it's called BELIEF and NOT TRUTH.
    I can formulate any number of 'hypothetical answers' I want. Why should the notion of God be privileged in any way? In fact, as long as people claim that God does exist, they are burdened with providing proof for it. It is a simple concept, really.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Skarpherdin's Avatar
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    Santa is the altered Form of Wotan
    the gods created us and they made the big bang
    In order to build Odinism into a valid and inspiring religious expression we must overcome this tendency to trivialise divinity. The gods are not Vikings…they are spiritual beings, potent forces of numinous power"
    (Odinic Rite)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadu View Post
    Another possible question is "Is there any proof that God doesn't exist?", can we affirm that God doesn't exist?

    To repeat a funny argument (pervitinist): can you affirm 100% for certain michael jackson is not an alien from mars?

    The bottom line is: why should we bother wondering whether some god exists or not when there is no proof for it? How many other things are we supposed to wonder about as well then? Is it worth wasting our time thiking about it or worse living our lives according to such a belief when there is 0 proof for it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky Roma View Post
    To repeat a funny argument (pervitinist): can you affirm 100% for certain michael jackson is not an alien from mars?
    Tooth fairy argument...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky Roma View Post
    The bottom line is: why should we bother wondering whether some god exists or not when there is no proof for it? How many other things are we supposed to wonder about as well then? Is it worth wasting our time thiking about it or worse living our lives according to such a belief when there is 0 proof for it?
    I'm not religious(i'm agnostic) but i see everyday signs that make me believe that God or somekind of Supreme Order made(and rules) our Universe. When i studied Biology i felt that, when i'm solving a mathematical equation or drawing a person(or something else).
    Discovering the "nature" of Nature and the Universe led me to realize that all this, is the Work of someone and not just a coincidence.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Soldier of Wodann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taras View Post
    Normally I hate these types of discussions; since I hate metaphysics. Like Kierkegaard, my main issue is not what Christianity is, but what is it to become a Christian.

    Anyways, St. Thomas Aquinas famously presented five proofs for such. They're outlined below:


    1 - FIRST MOVER: Some things are in motion, anything moved is moved by another, and there can't be an infinite series of movers. So there must be a first mover (a mover that isn't itself moved by another). This is God.

    2 - FIRST CAUSE: Some things are caused, anything caused is caused by another, and there can't be an infinite series of causes. So there must be a first cause (a cause that isn't itself caused by another). This is God.

    3 - NECESSARY BEING: Every contingent being at some time fails to exist. So if everything were contingent, then at some time there would have been nothing -- and so there would be nothing now -- which is clearly false. So not everything is contingent. So there is a necessary being. This is God.

    4 - GREATEST BEING: Some things are greater than others. Whatever is great to any degree gets its greatness from that which is the greatest. So there is a greatest being, which is the source of all greatness. This is God.

    5 - INTELLIGENT DESIGNER: Many things in the world that lack intelligence act for an end. Whatever acts for an end must be directed by an intelligent being. So the world must have an intelligent designer. This is God.

    http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/RE/R-B2--00.HTM
    These things imply that Humans can mentally understand the concept of nothingness or of things that defy the laws of nature, which we are 100% programmed to work under. There is no reason we should be able to know either way, but we can use our logic to discern likelihoods and possibilities, which are of course highly subjective (hence this debate).

    That is all.

    We are born to fight and to die and to continue the Flow
    The Flow of our People


    Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

  8. #78
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    I do not need to prove that the tooth fairy does not exist to say there is no reason to believe that she does.
    True, but if one makes the positive assertion that such a thing doesn't exist, or for example that "there is no proof of God", then they have to provide evidence for their claim.

    Also, both parties must be in agreement as to what evidence should be expected if the claim is true. Because one might say "I don't believe in such and such a thing, because there is no evidence", yet the evidence might be everywhere, he just doesn't realise it's evidence; or perhaps he's looking in the wrong place, even in the wrong dimension (such is the case with atheists who want physical evidence of God's existence).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    I can formulate any number of 'hypothetical answers' I want. Why should the notion of God be privileged in any way? In fact, as long as people claim that God does exist, they are burdened with providing proof for it. It is a simple concept, really.
    Because the philosophical idea of a god is a rational possibility on one of the three classical questions of philosophy: where did we come from?

    It's a philosophical idea however and religions are not philosophical. They are using a philosophical idea as a dogma to create a community so religion is much more a mundane phenomenon than a divine.
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

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    Senior Member Galloglaich's Avatar
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    Without getting into my personal beliefs, I think for the most part I side with the Kantian notion that anything that is beyond the boundaries of typical space/time perception will forever be beyond the realms of rational proof. That is not to say that those things do/do not exist, it's just that they are "improvable" in the empirical sense. That basically leaves us with the option of either disinterest/disbelief or something along the lines of Pascal's Wager;

    You live as though God exists.
    If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
    If God does not exist, you gain nothing and lose nothing.

    You live as though God does not exist.
    If God exists, the text is unspecified, but it could be implied that you
    go to limbo, purgatory, or hell: your loss is either null or infinite.
    If God does not exist, you gain nothing and lose nothing.

    or, Kierkegaard’s “Leap to Faith” (in the face of the fact that proof of God’s existence is completely unknowable, you decide to believe anyway as a matter of Faith).

    Regardless of your opinion, objective proof of God’s existence is still unattainable. I have my own subjective thoughts on the matter, but I do not think they would be able to “prove” anything either way; nor would anyone else’s.

    As an aside, I’d like to point out that Aquinas’ “proofs” are thinly reworked and Christianized versions of Aristotle’s “Unmoved Mover”.
    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."
    — Samuel Adams

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