View Poll Results: Can the Existence of God be Proven?

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Thread: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Angel View Post
    As a Christian I never bother trying to convince folks of God's existence. There is no solid proof, usually the kind of proof atheists want, cause God is not a "solid" thing. We can't force faith on folks. Whether folks believe in Him or not is up to them.

    The Christian view, indeed, is that God doesn't need nor care to "prove" his existence to all men, but only to those who are worthy of him. It is man who must first prove his faith in several trials, which is what the sacraments are for. People somehow have this idea that they deserve rewards without doing the work. The only way that could prove the spirit is through it, therefore, all attempts to prove the existence of something supra-rational by reason is pointless.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I don't know it's completely unattainable (I'm not God ). I think that something that is (by most people's conceptions) both immaterial and eternal is too far removed from the human sensory capacity to be objectively proven.
    But God, and human beings, are spirits. Our bodies have material senses, but the soul is what perceives spiritual things. Now, according to the Bible, sin is what dulls the soul from perceiving God; it's a rejection of Him.

    Without sin, our sense of God would be just as clear as our sense of material things. In fact, I believe that without spiritual sight, certainty about anything (including the material) is never absolutely complete.

    So, just as you can't perceive light and colour if you shut it out, likewise you only perceive material things if you're spiritually shutting God out. The thing is, the nature of sin is such that people don't acknowledge they're shutting Him out. But if God changes their will, they realise that they had indeed been doing that.

    If you have objective proof of God’s existence, or any reason to believe that it is humanly attainable, I would like to see it.
    I can't make you see it. You will only see it if you open your eyes, which in turn requires a change of the will; God can do that for you.

    But this spiritual change of will is not something that can be imagined when one's will is entirely against God. This is the natural state of sinful mankind.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    Whilst it is true that certain things must be taken as axioms (and these are not arbitrary - indeed, they are necessary; no further knowledge can arise in their absence), this doesn't relieve Christians (or any other theist) of the task of proving their God's existence, or any God's for that matter,
    Except that the very nature of God himself posists him outside the natural realm; so in essence his existence cannot be definatively proven nor disproven. You have to accept God's existence on faith; and of course when you do so you're making a wager with your soul(ala Pascal).

    at least if they want to be taken seriously.
    Taken seriously by whom exactly?

    My point is you cannot merely say to an atheist "God exists", and then in response to their demand for evidence say "Well you prove that He doesn't exist!"
    That certainly is a typical theistic copt-out, and it is indeed dishonest - since you can't prove a negative.

    Indeed, if there are other more plausible explanations for the origins of the world, and if there is little reason to accept the existence of any particular deity (e.g. logical contradictions entailed in said deity's very traits), it is incumbent on the theist to put forward a proof of some sort.
    It should be noted that spiritual truth is paradoxical and metaphoric by its very nature. So if you're truely disturbed by "logical contradictions", then it's clear you may not truely understand spiritual truth in the first place.

    Any theist engaging in a philosophical argument must do so; if they're not interested in that, though, then there is no point in even debating them.
    That pretty much is what it all boils down to: you either believe God exists or you don't. If you don't believe in him, then there's much more one can say to you - except go in peace, and may God have mercy on your wretched soul!

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taras View Post
    Except that the very nature of God himself posists him outside the natural realm; so in essence his existence cannot be definatively proven nor disproven. You have to accept God's existence on faith; and of course when you do so you're making a wager with your soul(ala Pascal).



    Taken seriously by whom exactly?



    That certainly is a typical theistic copt-out, and it is indeed dishonest - since you can't prove a negative.



    It should be noted that spiritual truth is paradoxical and metaphoric by its very nature. So if you're truely disturbed by "logical contradictions", then it's clear you may not truely understand spiritual truth in the first place.



    That pretty much is what it all boils down to: you either believe God exists or you don't. If you don't believe in him, then there's much more one can say to you - except go in peace, and may God have mercy on your wretched soul!
    All I can say when I read posts like this can be summed up in one word: Negative! When the Bible says that man was created "In His Image", it doesn't mean God actually has fingers and toes and eyes as we know them; Men are similar in >nature< to God. Man's reason and intelligence are what puts him above the animals but "a little lower than the angels". What would the point and purpose be to these gifts if they were to lead us away from God? If God cannot be found through logic, I submit that He cannot be found at all.
    It is the very fact that we are left to assume infinite cycles of cause-effect (logically impossible) or God that leaves God in the position of being the only logical answer. It is either God, or something logically unattainable (aka, chaos theory). I don't care to refute chaos theory, so long as its proponents realize that their beliefs fly in the face of logic, while belief in God is perfectly logical.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyfing View Post
    "God is dead"
    Is he dead? Or does he live in heaven? Is there a heaven? Can I go if there is? When will I find out if there is or isn't a heaven? Or if there is a God? Does God love everyone? Does he love me? Who is God? Where did he come from? Is God Jesus? Or nothing of the sort? Are there many Gods? Or just one? Are there any Gods? Does God except all these religions and their ideas? Or just a few? Or just one? Why can't I feel secure in any of the ideas given to me? Why can't I even answer a question like, explain your faith? Your religion? Or even, what do you believe? Because like all these questions, I have no answers, I only have more questions.
    "We've become a nation of strangers. There seems to be very little in common to bond us to our fellow Americans outside of our immediate families,some don't even have that to fall back on."

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Lyfing View Post
    Is he dead? Or does he live in heaven? Is there a heaven? Can I go if there is? When will I find out if there is or isn't a heaven? Or if there is a God? Does God love everyone? Does he love me? Who is God? Where did he come from? Is God Jesus? Or nothing of the sort? Are there many Gods? Or just one? Are there any Gods? Does God except all these religions and their ideas? Or just a few? Or just one? Why can't I feel secure in any of the ideas given to me? Why can't I even answer a question like, explain your faith? Your religion? Or even, what do you believe? Because like all these questions, I have no answers, I only have more questions.
    Yep..God is Dead. It seems to me (I believe) that morality ( like the ten commandments handed down from God, or in the sphere of the creativity of the Superman,..maybe Hamurrabi’s code ) can be roughly divided into two camps, those of the slaves and those of the nobles. Of the good and bad and what those good of the opposite side resentiment as evil. I came about this idea from Nietzsche. Basically what I’m saying is that there is good and there is bad, that is a noble notion, but when there becomes good, as in righteous, Jesus loves me, and evil as in, Your going to Hell, we have a problem.

    See, this is all about the creating..not in having a God that created everything, but of having Supermen that create. The emphasis on living your one life in this world right here and now..Building one’s treasures up on Earth NOT in Heaven. Nietzsche’s philosophy was a going away of absolutes..of my truth ( God’s word ) is your truth and if you don’t think so you are going to Hell, and a bringing of the Supermen ( with their will to power..not as in the Lord’s prayer of “thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven” ) who create as they see fit as the gods they are.

    Now when it comes to heaven..what a notion I know. No one wants to die. That is as a sad a notion as I can think off. To have all I have gone in an instant, and having absolutely no way of knowing what is going to happen especially with all this talk of life not being the end.

    If I’ve brave enough I’m going to Valhalla when I die in battle to take part in the Ragnarok under Odin. This is my what’s going to happen when I die “dream.” I’m going to be carried there by beautiful warrior maidens called Valkyrie, and while there I’m going to fight all day, in preparation for war, if I get my leg cut off it will grow back, at night I’m going to feast on the same pig that just keeps showing back up everyday and get drunk, and brag about how brave I am.

    Now do I really think that is going to happen..? It’s on many levels.

    I can go with this..

    If we are to live again I have it figured we live again in our children because they act like we do and do the things that we do. The old saying goes that “Apples don’t fall far from trees.” Mr. McNallen of the AFA calls this Metagenetics..??. I tend to think that Rupert Sheldrake’s work on the morphogenetic fields goes along with it..maybe even Theosophical notions of the soul.

    It’s getting late now though, so maybe I’ll come up with more, do you have any questions..? Please ask..?

    And then there is maybe this..a look at the gods..

    Chapter 2:
    The Nature of Divinity and Deity in &#193;satr&#250;
    Polytheism: n. the doctrine of, or belief in, many gods or more gods than one.
    &#193;satr&#250; is a polytheist religion which anthropomorphizes its deities. What this means, is that we believe in multiple, individual gods and goddesses that appear or have the attributes of human beings. One of the largest and most important concepts of religion is the nature of divinity and deity. Within the &#193;satr&#250; religion, there is a wide road of generally accepted ideas and philosophies of the nature of divinity and deity. Within the context of this chapter, I will discuss five major viewpoints.
    The first idea of the divine and deity is the belief that the gods and goddesses are actual, living beings. These beings were created by the unfolding universe. In this thought they too grow, mature, gain wisdom, and die as does everything else in the universe. They are divine in the aspect of them having a longer life span, more power, greater intellect, and that they are our creators and ancestors. Our gods are only immortal in relation to our own life span. They are not omniscient, or all knowing. In this, our gods can understand us better in that they too must struggle to enforce their wills and desires within their own existences. In that, the differences between a god and a mortal is merely by degree. A god's fundamental nature is similar to mankind’s. The extreme position in this idea could encompass taking the lore as pure, actual fact. This is the thought of the strictest polytheists.
    The second concept of divinity and deity which I will discuss is the idea of the gods being a manifestation of forces of nature. In this concept, the gods and goddesses of our folk are seen as being the personified greatness of the natural world. The myths and lore are symbolic teachings in which the forces of nature are personified into entities in order to help with understanding.
    Although more pantheistic in nature, this is where the religious or philosophical belief adheres to the thought that it is the universe itself and all of the creation within it which are divine. In this strict case, divinity itself is not conscious, but a type of power which permeates, and is central, in all things. Often, the concept of pantheism is confused with polytheism, even amongst many learned persons. For the sake of this work, I am keeping in strict with definitions. In the light of accepting this concept, the myths and lore would be thought of as being highly symbolic.
    9
    The archetype is the third concept in which we will discuss. It is based strongly on the works of Professor Carl Gustav Jung, a Swiss psychologist who wrote many essays and works in the 1900's. In his works, an archetype was like a psychological "well" of conscious and unconscious memory in which new life, enthusiasm, and energy for the soul and willpower of the individual, group, or peoples could be found. In his famous essay, "Wotan" he writes;
    "...We must go back to the age of myths, which did not explain everything in terms of man in his limited capacities, but sought the deeper cause in the psyche and its autonomous powers. Man's earliest intuitions personified these powers as gods and described them in the myths with great care and circumstantially according to their various characters. This could be done the more readily on account of the firmly established primordial types or images which are innate in the unconsciousness of many races, and exercise a direct influence upon them. Because the behavior of a race takes on its specific character from its underlying images, we can speak of an archetype, Wotan, as an autonomous psychic factor. Wotan produces effects in the collective life of a people and thereby reveals his own nature. For Wotan has a peculiar biology of his own, quite apart from the nature of man."
    One should note that Jung’s use of the word, “race” was quite different than the modern usage. When Jung was writing, “race” denoted what we would consider being a specific ethnicity (i.e. the Irish race, the Roman race, or the race of the Franks).
    There is a fourth concept of the nature of divinity and deity within &#193;satr&#250; in which I will explain as being the patterns of the evolution and deification of the self. In this concept it is the self which is divine, and the gods and goddesses are an internal function of every human being. In this concept and viewpoint, the gods and goddesses are a part of the self and are also patterns for which one is to emulate in order to gain in the evolution of the self.
    The gods and goddesses in this thought exist as models for determining what is ideal and what is inferior in the human condition and psyche. In the gods, we are to see ourselves in both strengths and weaknesses. This is because the gods are, literally ourselves, in this philosophic concept. Myths and lore are believed to be codes for learning about ourselves and how to improve the self, in this concept of divinity and deity. In these thoughts, the gods, goddess, and other beings illustrate the conscious, subconscious, and unconscious forces of the self.
    The fifth, and final, concept of divinity and deity in which I will discuss is the intricate combinations of the already explained concepts. In this thought pattern, the idea is that the nature of divinity and deity is not to be defined so strictly. It adheres to the philosophy that the nature of the divine is multi-natured to begin with. Within this concept, the idea that a deity could encompass existing as an actual conscious being, a manifestation of nature, an archetype, and as also a piece of every individual worshipper is acceptable in a vast array of degrees.
    The myths and lore are accepted as spiritual truths in which some are to be taken literally, some symbolically, and some as teachings for the evolution and discovery of the self. Deities are not only internal, but also external. They are not only subjective, but also objective. The one thought process which must be foremost in accepting this philosophy of the nature of divinity and deity is, to accept the overriding idea that there is no such thing as contradiction.
    10

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/2052042/Mi...-of-the-Asatru
    Later,
    -Lyfing

  7. #97
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    Although there is no rational reason to believe in god, a purely rational individual would choose to believe in god it seems to me, given that by believing, one will either be rewarded or nothing will happen, and that by not believing, one will either be punished or nothing will happen. The problem with this though, is the notion that if there is a god he will know your motivations, and not accept your pragmatic decision making as true belief at all.

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    That'd be Pascal's wager. Omniscience does kind of undermine the whole argument though.

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    I honestly don't want to offend anyone in the topic, but I think it's a bit silly to make a proof about a god. I think experiencing the godlike is something truly personal and it's not about facts that are proved to each other. If I would start to make proofs that the gods exist I think some of you would consider me quite foolish. The proofs are coming to an individual through experiences, through intense observation. Those who truly seek, sooner or later find what they have been looking for, and it's no need to make proofs, at least this is my opinion.
    :Überschöpfung:



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    There will never be a proof of God because the idea is that God created our universe and the world. As with science, we can observe the universe thanks to finding out about natural laws. However, God as the creator does not necessarily belong to this creation hence does not necessarily follow natural laws. If he is "outside" of the universe, there won't be any way to detect God. Therefore it is simply a matter of belief. You have a "free will" and can choose to believe in God or to believe in its non-existance. Both ideas seem equally convincing for me but I rather tend to believe in a God.
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

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