View Poll Results: Can the Existence of God be Proven?

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  • Yes the Existence of God can be proven.

    8 22.22%
  • No the Existence of God can't be proven.

    18 50.00%
  • There is no valid answer to this question.

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Thread: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

  1. #41
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    Are you a Catholic altar-boy?
    No, Hindu, I am not Catholic. If you have been unable to adduce that I am overtly agnostic, your comprehension is frightfully selective or you're glaringly obtuse -- then again, both tend to dovetail in the "spiritual" man.

    Go forth Vishnu, and when the dust settles, an even more enlightened mankind will look back on your dogmatism and contentious irrationality and have a difficult time differentiating it from lunacy:

    "It simply beggars belief that this foolish sycophant thought he could ride willed ignorance towards a 'higher consciousness'!"

    Last edited by The Blond Beast; Tuesday, October 5th, 2004 at 10:37 AM.

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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    I think we've done enough straying from the fundamental point, since I believe that the only affirmation or rejection of religious consciousness is experience.

    Now that I feel I understand the mechanics of your thought processes a little more clearly, let me ask you this question, fundamental to the separation of minds:

    What enlightenment do you believe modern man has now that makes him superior to archaic man?
    http://home.earthlink.net/~norsemyth...iedNothung.jpg

    All peoples will bear witness that unborn I spoke one word and made the vow that I would flee neither fire nor iron from fear, and so I have done until now. Why should I not fulfill that vow in my old age? Maidens will not taunt my sons during games by saying that they feared their deaths, for each man must at one time die. No one may escape dying that once, and it is my counsel that we not flee, but for our own part act the bravest. I have fought a hundred times, sometimes with a larger army and sometimes with a lesser one. Both ways I have had the victory, and it will not be reported that I either fled or asked for peace.

  3. #43
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    Stribog:

    Blond Beast doesn't lack direction, he is just wise enough not to get it from musty, tattered rags of faith, relics of a time when men could conceive of little else.

    The portion of the quote you didn't bold following this statement proves that they could conceive of much more than modern man.

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

    Inappropriate use.

    LMAO, care to substantiate this?

    Scientists do biological, chemical, and genetic testing on rats instead of chimps because of this very fact.

    Have you ever read a basic biology textbook? Or do you avoid their blasphemous teachings?

    Yes, but I also notice the holes in the flawed sciences.

    Chimpanzees are not our ancestors, they are our closest living kin, descended from a common ancestor.

    Which we have yet to find.

    Judaism... Islam... Hinduism... various paganisms...

    Lots of accusations, still no evidence. Show me the doctrines that indicate they abhor enlightenment.

    Wasn't Socrates killed for impiety towards the Gods?

    By people.

    Just because the politics of the day led to his condemnation doesn't discount the validity of the religion. Just because Hitler and Mussolini were killed, and are currently disparaged for defiling Europe, doesn't mean they actually did so.

    Yeah. Scarcely anything except conservation of protein structure and function as well as homologous skeletal morphology, not to mention gill slits, dorsal nerve chords and other morphogenetic and embryological data.

    Evidence of microevolution, not macroevolution.

    You probably haven't heard the phrase "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," have you?

    From the second link on the google search "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny".

    Now say you're sorry.

    Apparently neither does religion.

    A gay aside with no supportive claims.

    The fact that discoveries are just being made in the past ten years that ancient tribal civilizations have already been saying since they were discovered by the Western world.

    The inner chambers of the Pyramids point outwards towards significant constellations 4,000 years before the invention of the telescope.

    The Dogon tribe of West Africa have a religion that worships a star (Sirius B) that is impossible to see without a telescope.

    Scientists describing the expansion and contraction of the universe are describing the "Inhalation of Brahma," and reaffirming the destiny of the universe as told by millennia of Hindi scholars.

    The recently discovered Ekpyrotic Theory of the creation of the universe recounts exactly what creationist mythology has stated since time immemorial.

    The social dynamics of the caste system are described in the same way as one superior element in the hierarchy of life acts upon the inferior, leading from the cellular organelles (Untouchables) to the will of a being (Brahmans).

    Don't tell me religion cannot adequately interpret reality when they interpret it more effectively (and, apparently, more quickly) than science can.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~norsemyth...iedNothung.jpg

    All peoples will bear witness that unborn I spoke one word and made the vow that I would flee neither fire nor iron from fear, and so I have done until now. Why should I not fulfill that vow in my old age? Maidens will not taunt my sons during games by saying that they feared their deaths, for each man must at one time die. No one may escape dying that once, and it is my counsel that we not flee, but for our own part act the bravest. I have fought a hundred times, sometimes with a larger army and sometimes with a lesser one. Both ways I have had the victory, and it will not be reported that I either fled or asked for peace.

  4. #44
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    The inner chambers of the Pyramids point outwards towards significant constellations 4,000 years before the invention of the telescope.
    The three main pyramids at Giza are aligned with the belt of Orion -- a clearly visible constellation. Of course, all constellations are visible, making the necessity of the telescope of no consequence.

    This kind of confusion is probably similar to the "guest star" in Taurus as recorded in 1054 by Chinese observers. Unfortunately, this "guest star" is what we today call a "supernova", which is only visible for a short period of time -- light for a short period of time where there was once was none! To these primitives, considering most stars to be immutable in brightness and location, such prominence could easily be interpreted as the divine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    The Dogon tribe of West Africa have a religion that worships a star (Sirius B) that is impossible to see without a telescope.
    This just in: given the immensity of the Universe, point your finger towards the sky in any direction and state that there exists an unseen star of any character (color/size, companions...) -- you'll always be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    Scientists describing the expansion and contraction of the universe are describing the "Inhalation of Brahma," and reaffirming the destiny of the universe as told by millennia of Hindi scholars.
    A nice little metaphor for "cycle"...

    Alas, the universe has been proven to be expanding at an accelerating rate, a rate that suggests that the Universe will die a death of ice. Don't expect "inhalation" anytime soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    The recently discovered Ekpyrotic Theory of the creation of the universe recounts exactly what creationist mythology has stated since time immemorial.
    The very nascent Ekpyrotic Theory proves nothing -- it is simply another postulated mechanism of the initiation of the Universe involving branes instead of a singularity. It certainly doesn't vindicate archaic creationist mythology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    Don't tell me religion cannot adequately interpret reality when they interpret it more effectively (and, apparently, more quickly) than science can.
    Considering all your above "proofs" are patently flimsy, yes, religion does tend to interpret things more quickly, but consistently fails to shed significant light on reality/truth.
    Last edited by The Blond Beast; Thursday, October 7th, 2004 at 01:43 AM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    2. Our DNA is more similar to rats than chimps.

    Scientists do biological, chemical, and genetic testing on rats instead of chimps because of this very fact.
    I am a scientist, and I can tell you that scientists do work on rats because they are small and can be packed in large numbers into cages, because they are inexpensive to breed, feed and shelter, because they reach sexual maturity in 11 weeks instead of 6 to 10 years, and because gestation is 21 days instead of 8 to 9 months. Perhaps you are seriously suggesting that chimpanzees could be easily bred, fed, housed, and adequately cared for in labs, and that scientists should just "wait it out" when conducting genetic studies? How much do you think it would cost to feed a chimpanzee and provide it with adequate housing while waiting for 10 years to conduct each crossbreeding? There are, of course, also ethical issues present when working with chimps that are comparable to those of working with humans.

    Chimpanzees are not our ancestors, they are our closest living kin, descended from a common ancestor.

    Which we have yet to find.
    It's a big world; 99.9% of the species that have lived are extinct. Considering we have only been looking in a few places for a paltry 130 years, it's not surprising that we haven't found THE missing link; we have, however, found several direct and indirect ancestors.

    Lots of accusations, still no evidence. Show me the doctrines that indicate they abhor enlightenment.
    Millenia of historal notations should suffice.


    Wasn't Socrates killed for impiety towards the Gods?

    By people.

    What, Zeus and Ares weren't around to kill him? I thought you were the theist here?

    Just because the politics of the day led to his condemnation doesn't discount the validity of the religion. Just because Hitler and Mussolini were killed, and are currently disparaged for defiling Europe, doesn't mean they actually did so.
    You should be prepared to accept that if history is wrong in some cases, it could be wrong in any or all cases, including the ones supporting your arguments.


    Evidence of microevolution, not macroevolution.
    When whales and humans have the exacts same bones in their fins and hands, how is that microevolution? I would think whales and humans evolving from a common ancestor would be macroevolution, since it's hardly something one can compare to dog-breeding. And how exactly are vestigial gill slits dating back to our time as amphibians supportive of microevolution?



    ROFL "By David N. Menton (C) copyright 1991
    Missouri Association for Creation, Inc."

    We doan' need no sahnce in these hyar parts! Sahnce contradicts Gawd's Truth in the Bahbul!


    Don't tell me religion cannot adequately interpret reality when they interpret it more effectively (and, apparently, more quickly) than science can.
    Like when religion says the Sun moves around the Earth?

  6. #46
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stríbog
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant
    From the second link on the google search "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny".

    Now say you're sorry.
    ROFL "By David N. Menton (C) copyright 1991
    Missouri Association for Creation, Inc."
    Tyrant really is an objective, rational student of truth.

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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    Blond Beast:

    The three main pyramids at Giza are aligned with the belt of Orion -- a clearly visible constellation. Of course, all constellations are visible, making the necessity of the telescope of no consequence.

    Not to mention Plough and Ursa major. Also, I forgot to mention that the walls of the pyramids face exactly North, South, East, and West - from the perspective of a globe, not as an estimation from the path of the sun - at a time when the world was accepted as flat.

    This just in: given the immensity of the Universe, point your finger towards the sky in any direction and state that there exists an unseen star of any character (color/size, companions...) -- you'll always be correct.

    Pointing to the same star each time lessens the probability of you being correct.

    A nice little metaphor for "cycle"...

    Hinduism stated that the world existed in cycles long before scientists did. Ever hear of the "Kali Yuga"?

    Alas, the universe has been proven to be expanding at an accelerating rate, a rate that suggests that the Universe will die a death of ice. Don't expect "inhalation" anytime soon...

    If it's accelerating, doesn't that indicate an added energy?

    The very nascent Ekpyrotic Theory proves nothing -- it is simply another postulated mechanism of the initiation of the Universe involving branes instead of a singularity. It certainly doesn't vindicate archaic creationist mythology.

    It's based on the same metaphysical proponents as quantum theory, which fundamentally proves nothing unless you live in the Ivory Tower. I'm just pointing out how scientists are forming cosmic and eschatological postulates concerning what we've already known.

    Please address the question I posted before.

    Stribog:

    I am a scientist, and I can tell you that scientists do work on rats because they are small and can be packed in large numbers into cages, because they are inexpensive to breed, feed and shelter, because they reach sexual maturity in 11 weeks instead of 6 to 10 years, and because gestation is 21 days instead of 8 to 9 months. Perhaps you are seriously suggesting that chimpanzees could be easily bred, fed, housed, and adequately cared for in labs, and that scientists should just "wait it out" when conducting genetic studies? How much do you think it would cost to feed a chimpanzee and provide it with adequate housing while waiting for 10 years to conduct each crossbreeding? There are, of course, also ethical issues present when working with chimps that are comparable to those of working with humans.

    Upon reexamining my research, I find that I was in the wrong concerning the comparability of rats to chimpanzees. However, this does not make a common ancestor between chimpanzees and humans acceptable beyond refutation.

    It's a big world; 99.9% of the species that have lived are extinct. Considering we have only been looking in a few places for a paltry 130 years, it's not surprising that we haven't found THE missing link; we have, however, found several direct and indirect ancestors.

    Like?

    Millenia of historical notations should suffice.

    Of which you've still named not one.

    What, Zeus and Ares weren't around to kill him? I thought you were the theist here?

    The fact that a mob commanded Socrates' death doesn't mean that the genuine religious values of Graeco-Roman paganism are any less valid.

    You should be prepared to accept that if history is wrong in some cases, it could be wrong in any or all cases, including the ones supporting your arguments.

    I can tell the difference between an example that is flawed because it is inherently wrong, and an example that is flawed only due to the circumstances in which it arose.

    When whales and humans have the exacts same bones in their fins and hands, how is that microevolution? I would think whales and humans evolving from a common ancestor would be macroevolution, since it's hardly something one can compare to dog-breeding. And how exactly are vestigial gill slits dating back to our time as amphibians supportive of microevolution?

    How are these indicative of evolution at all? Did we evolve from the same ancestors as whales or chimpanzees? What's the connection?

    ROFL "By David N. Menton (C) copyright 1991
    Missouri Association for Creation, Inc."

    We doan' need no sahnce in these hyar parts! Sahnce contradicts Gawd's Truth in the Bahbul!


    Did I not say that it was the second link I clicked on? Here's more:

    From the University of California, Berkeley Museum of Paleontology website:

    The "law of recapitulation" has been discredited since the beginning of the twentieth century. Experimental morphologists and biologists have shown that there is not a one-to-one correspondence between phylogeny and ontogeny. Although a strong form of recapitulation is not correct, phylogeny and ontogeny are intertwined, and many biologists are beginning to both explore and understand the basis for this connection.

    The proponent of this postulate, Ernst Haeckel, stated that man's evolutionary development started from fish to chicken to dog to man.

    Not to mention 'ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny' was based on a series of drawings proven to be doctored by Haeckel, according to Michael Richardson's scientific review (and no, Richardson is not a Bible Thumper).

    Like when religion says the Sun moves around the Earth?

    Asshole, I said the Christian Church doesn't count because it's a religion without genuine spiritual consciousness. Any truly traditional civilization viewed the earth as contingent and feminine, while the Sun was revered as masculine and superior.

    Maybe you can answer the question I directed towards Blond Beast: What is it about modern man that makes him fundamentally superior to archaic man?
    http://home.earthlink.net/~norsemyth...iedNothung.jpg

    All peoples will bear witness that unborn I spoke one word and made the vow that I would flee neither fire nor iron from fear, and so I have done until now. Why should I not fulfill that vow in my old age? Maidens will not taunt my sons during games by saying that they feared their deaths, for each man must at one time die. No one may escape dying that once, and it is my counsel that we not flee, but for our own part act the bravest. I have fought a hundred times, sometimes with a larger army and sometimes with a lesser one. Both ways I have had the victory, and it will not be reported that I either fled or asked for peace.

  8. #48
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    I like it how people love arguing simple points and ignore fundamental ones.

    What is it about modern man that makes him superior to archaic man?
    http://home.earthlink.net/~norsemyth...iedNothung.jpg

    All peoples will bear witness that unborn I spoke one word and made the vow that I would flee neither fire nor iron from fear, and so I have done until now. Why should I not fulfill that vow in my old age? Maidens will not taunt my sons during games by saying that they feared their deaths, for each man must at one time die. No one may escape dying that once, and it is my counsel that we not flee, but for our own part act the bravest. I have fought a hundred times, sometimes with a larger army and sometimes with a lesser one. Both ways I have had the victory, and it will not be reported that I either fled or asked for peace.

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    Senior Member Johnson's Avatar
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    Post Re: Can The Existence of God be Proven?

    No. If it could, it would have been by now. It should also be noted that the theory (keyword) of natural selection can not be entirely proven, an example being that it does not accurately explain Monotremes. Faith is not constricted to theology, but secularism as well. Not to say that faith in scientific method is 'religious,' of course.
    "I thought a mother's genes are passed on to her daughters and a father's genes are passed on to his sons. My understanding of genetic is really limited."
    - cosmocreator

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    Is There Proof of the Existence of God?

    What proof of God is there to begin with?

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