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Thread: Halloween Costumes

  1. #61
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenDice
    Next you'll be debating that Christmas Day isn't really based on a pagan celebration .

    http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/is...16-10pg12.html

    Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

    Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    OMG here we go
    (It doesn't matter how old the song is, I won't stop liking it).

  3. #63
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenDice
    Halloween is based on Samhain, whether you Xtians agree or not. It doesn't matter what day it falls on. October the 31st is November Eve. It may have something to do with the fact it combined with your All Saints day but undoubtedly the festive season is about ghosts and the dead, no Xtian involved at all. Next you'll be debating that Christmas Day isn't really based on a pagan celebration .
    Well, first off - you aren't speaking to any 'Xtian's' - no such thing exists. Christmas is a Christian feast, no relation to Lupercalia. Any such claims are not based on either ecclesiastical history or anthropology of the Christian churches - but again upon Protestant anti-Roman propaganda (which is also anti-pagan.) The simple fact is that Samhain has no connection with 'Halloween' - no Celtic folk ever celebrated a pagan 'Halloween' - the term is entirely that of a Christian feast, and applies only to that Christian feast and by extension to an American secularisation of that Christian feast. That is probably one of the most anti-intellectual characteristics of the fluff-bunnies: that so many of their beliefs are derivative of Protestant polemic and apologetic, and have no other basis. This is so much so, that many of us consider that 'Wicca' and many other 'pagan' movements might as well be considered a heresy of Christianity (ie, Christianity with a 'consort' goddess, and removed from its historical context.) Ultimately, the arguments for a Halloween connection with Samhain have their origin entirely with folk like Alexander Hyslop and his 'Two Babylons' book attempting to prove the 'pagan' origins of the 'Papists'.

    No doubt one could see a real Animist or pagan (like a Hindu) as having some credibility and validity on the basis of their own beliefs - but if this is all that Western/Northern European neo-paganism can offer - some regurgitated Fundie tracts (Jack Chick anyone?), why should any of us take it seriously?
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  4. #64
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Speaking of Wicca, I always love reading their accounts about how the main goal of the Inquisition was to stamp out the old witch religion. Really? Funny you only find this in books written by Wiccans and not other people who write about the Inquisition. Also its pretty hard to stamp out a religion that didnt exist at the time.

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.
    Yes, and add to that the fact that 'Old Christmas' as celebrated in Britain and America is the same as 'Old Calendarist' Christmas of the Orthodox Churches - January 6th. So, modern December 25th is nearly two weeks before 'real' Christmas - so, which one is the 'pagan' December 25th? Gregorian or Julian? (Same with Halloween and other feasts - if Samhain today is Oct. 31st, then it is some two weeks before Halloween, or 'Old Halloween' as us Traditionalists celebrate it.)
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    Speaking of Wicca, I always love reading their accounts about how the main goal of the Inquisition was to stamp out the old witch religion. Really? Funny you only find this in books written by Wiccans and not other people who write about the Inquisition. Also its pretty hard to stamp out a religion that didnt exist at the time.
    http://www.geraldgardner.com/index/essays.shtml

    You might find these essays interesting. Gardner began with the vagante Old Catholic movement (the English version of the Utrechtine Old Catholics) - then through his association with the Rosicrucians (esoteric Christians) and the O.T.O. (originally esoteric Christian movement related to Anglicanism) he met with Crowley, from whom the basic structure of Wicca took shape. He did invent his fanciful meeting with the 'Wica' of New Forest, but the outline is all there. 'Thelema' and the Vagante Catholic movement birthed the 'neo-pagans' - and every neo-pagan/satanic modern movement has either its origin or inspiration in Gardner or Crowley.

    Another very interesting essay: http://www.meta-religion.com/Spiritu..._and_wicca.htm

    Added: I should say, that not much of higher criticism has been applied to emerging religions in the neo-pagan movement. I've been dabbling a bit on my own. The same goes for 'dialogue'. I find what little has been written on Christianity from various pagan/heathen perspectives is extremely deficient in its understanding of Christianity as regards history, practice and belief. Generally, from the other direction, Christians could care less - and most still have a vague view of neo-pagans that is most likely to be informed by the sensationalist media.

    I'm trying to rig up something to scare the kiddies in my yard. I'm thinking something in the tree - like a hanged man that will move and make noise at an appropriate moment.
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    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

  7. #67
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    So basically they're a bunch of pissed-off Christians?

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    So basically they're a bunch of pissed-off Christians?
    Well, not all of them. A number of them are from Jewish backgrounds - including one of the major figures of the 'neo-Druid' movement. I've actually met an ex-Muslim neo-pagan as well. But, the great majority tend to either be ex-Protestant, or to a lesser extent ex-nominal-Roman Catholics - I have not met many ex-Eastern Catholics in the movement. Generally, the neo-pagan movement is very Jewish friendly, and as I've noted - very closely tied to the Holocaust industry (the Burning Times myth is a derivation of this very thing.) The one exception is the Asatru or Odinists, who tend towards anti-Jewish belief (speaking generally.)

    The odd thing about the vagante Catholic movement is how much members cross back and forth with the different occultic groups: Theosophical, Rosicrucian, Satanist/Luciferian, Wiccan, Neo-Pagan, Druidic, High Ritual Magick, Gnostic, etc. Check out http://www.ind-movement.org ... I believe the social construction and the types of personalities involved tend to be the same whether in the 'Independent Catholic' movement, various 'House Church' type Protestant groupings, and neo-Pagan/Heathen or Occultic groups.

    I'm going to give out candy instead of 'healthy snacks' this Halloween. It is parent's fault if they don't teach their children discipline and hygiene! That, and I like these chocolate eyeballs they have at the store... I can pretend they are my eyes and pop them out into the children's candy sacks.
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  9. #69
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba

    http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/is...16-10pg12.html

    Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

    Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.
    First of all, it is Feast of the Unconquered SUN. Birth of the Unconquered Son would just be the Christian Christmas. :eyes Second of all, it was only finally officialized that late, and had been practiced by centurions since they came into contact with Mithraists during their excursions along the frontier of the Eastern Empire.

    If Jesus even existed, and the Biblical account is to be trusted, it is likely he was born in October, given the description of where the shepherds had their flocks and what they were doing at the time of his birth.

    The fact is, Roman Catholics encouraged many pagan instutions, such as the date of Christmas, the Christmas tree, Easter eggs and rabbits, to make Christinsanity more appealing to pagans. Of course, the principled pagans who did not submit were put to the sword by fine human beings like yourself. At least it's finally dying out. It's been 2000 years too long, but it's finally dying, especially among whites. Soon your only Catholic brethren will be brown hordes from Aztlan and turds from Africa who combine Catholicism with Voodoo.

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