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Thread: Halloween Costumes

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    I remain a Kozak at heart, true and faithful Ukrainian warriors!
    You fancy yourself a "Kozak"?

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    There was no such feast in Rome at the time that Halloween was established. "Aryan" is an outdated and incorrect term to begin with (Aryans are in South Asia, not in Europe.) And most importantly, European cultures were not all 'copies' of each other - Frazer's 'Golden Bough' was mistaken in its idea that similar elements in various cultures had the same roots and were 'equivalent'.

    I am not overly concerned with the mythology and customs of the Romans but the Ario-Germanic peoples.
    As far my use of the term "Aryan" is concerned you may be afraid to use this because of academic pressure and the legacy of WWII but I have no such fear.It is an ancient term and its useage in connection with the Indo-Aryan language group is only 1 aspect of how the word may be used.
    I don`t feel that this is an appropriate place to discuss the issue.It would require a thread of its own.




    Persecutions? Only in the case of post-Schism Roman Catholicism and the conquest of the West Slavs and Balts. For most of history, persecutions were far more pagan (and Jewish) persecutions of Christians

    I see so you do not regard the forceable conversion of northern Europe under xtian kings and emperors as being a significant form of persecution?

    - in some instances, the execution of a pagan cum 'modern hero' was an after effect of that pagan personality's extreme persecution of Christians (like the philosopher Hypatia, where neo-pagans tend to quote only *part* of the story - leaving out Hypatia's connection to the Jews in Alexandria,and involvement with them in the mass murder and persecution of Christians.) Many of those given as examples were simply Christian heretics, like Priscillian, who was not executed by the Church but by the Roman government for issues unrelated to their heresy (in Priscillian's case, it was for treasonous acts and disturbing the peace, his execution at Magnus Maximus - the Celtic Emperor's orders, and was *protested* by the Church, especially by St. Ambrose of Milan.)

    Again,I am not concerned with the events of southern Europe.


    I'm not surprised you haven't heard the term ... Reconstructionists and others who take a much more academic approach to their paganism are those who tend to use the term. For more: http://wicca.timerift.net/index.html

    I have never encountered the expression but then again the heathens that I am familiar with are all Odinists and to us it is a living expression of our Folk Soul and not merely a matter of armchair speculation or cyber debate.

    As for making my mind up, I'm done: I'm 'home' as a Celtic Christian of the Western/English rite in the Orthodox Catholic Church. I was raised Protestant, was a Druid, hung out with Odinists and Asatru (no need for me to be one), never was a Roman Catholic, became a Protestant minister with a Hebraist sect, then an Old Catholic, a Continuing Anglican, then Western Orthodox - where I'll stay til my death. It was a spiritual journey to 'find the path', now that I've found it I can complete it.

    As for Gimbutas - she had some good points, but her postulation of a 'Feminist Europe' is so much politicizing, and misinterpretation of data. 'Pictish' matriarchy was not so much a matriarchy, as a system of inheritance for men - adopted according to the Irish chronicles as part of a treaty with the Irish on the part of the Picts. Thus, in Pictish society a woman was 'tied' to a piece of property. To own the property, the man married the woman - and the children inherited from the mother. Women were part of the property then, and a form of 'title deed' - and the relation through the female side linked them to the Irish (noting that 'Pictish' areas of Scotland are genetically no different than other parts of Gael-dom.) That is just one example - or the attempt to make artifacts like the 'Venus of Willendorf' into idols of some Mother Goddess, when most likely they were not religious artifacts at all, but more likely a sort of fertility talisman, or pornography. I'm guessing Robert Graves 'the White Goddess' is to be yet another text 'given as proof'?

    I am familiar with his work but I see no reason to quote from "The White Goddess" as we are straying off the point which is the debate concerning Halloween.

    Gimbutas, Graves, and Murray have been replaced in modern anthropology because their theories did not pass peer review

    This is the great weakness of academia-"peer review[pressure]".Very few academics have the backbone or moral fibre to go against the flow.
    Those that do are outcast from that select little club.

    - they are considered 'fringe', 'outdated', and especially sloppy and misleading. The idea of a 'Matriarchal Utopia' in Ancient Europe is just so much fantasy writing a la Jean Auel. I believe that the idea of Matriarchal societies has been pretty well handled in other threads by Pushkin/Taras Bulba on this forum.
    Again we are straying from the point or was that your intention?

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    I am not overly concerned with the mythology and customs of the Romans but the Ario-Germanic peoples.
    As far my use of the term "Aryan" is concerned you may be afraid to use this because of academic pressure and the legacy of WWII but I have no such fear.It is an ancient term and its useage in connection with the Indo-Aryan language group is only 1 aspect of how the word may be used.
    I don`t feel that this is an appropriate place to discuss the issue.It would require a thread of its own.
    It has nothing to do with 'fear' or 'academic pressure' - it has to do with the fact that the word 'Aryan' is Sanskrit, and has nothing do do with European history or pre-history. That, and I don't need flawed etymologies - for instance, one could make a far better case for Ireland coming from Greek "Eirene" - peaceful isle, than 'Aryan-land'. Such is the evidence for the use of the word 'Aryan'. I do understand the use of the word in German NS circles - they can use it there. It has nothing to do with Anglophones, however.

    I see so you do not regard the forceable conversion of northern Europe under xtian kings and emperors as being a significant form of persecution?
    Again, there were no 'xtian kings'. There were Christian Kings and Emperors, but much of Northern Europe became Christian because of popular conversion (Britain particularly) - the few that were otherwise (such as Charlemagne and the Saxons, or St. Olaf in Norway) were just 'business as usual'. The various cults of the native Germanic superstitions had been at war with each other previously - Irminsul and Odinists hotly contested each other. Christianity entered the fray and won, nothing out of the usual. It was truly neither 'forced conversion' nor persecution. Those who argue for a forced conversion cannot provide examples of just *how* one forces religious belief - especially not with a large population. The truth is that most folk made their conversion upon very pragmatic principles upon the success of the religion, and for a smaller more committed group because they had sought it out.

    Again,I am not concerned with the events of southern Europe.
    Europe is as Europe does.

    I have never encountered the expression but then again the heathens that I am familiar with are all Odinists and to us it is a living expression of our Folk Soul and not merely a matter of armchair speculation or cyber debate.
    Yes, I'm familiar with the idea: 'its in our blood', 'listen to your blood', etc. However, historically I can say there have been no Odinists for at least hundreds of years, if not a millenium or more. A 'living expression' if one accepts the idea that religion is encoded in the DNA and self-manifesting. I would make it akin to the Baptist idea of 'soul competency', which is what they believe the ability of each human soul to rightly respond to God and interpret Scripture correctly. It is your belief, so - there you have it. Good luck with it - I find nothing to convince me of such a position.

    I am familiar with his work but I see no reason to quote from "The White Goddess" as we are straying off the point which is the debate concerning Halloween.
    Yes, of course - and I'll get back on point. The reason for mentioning it, however, was to give a 'heads up' that such writings are considered the 'loony fringe' now that they have had time to be tested. They weren't accepted 'right out' in their day either - except amongst a certain group that had political reasons to (particularly the nascent Feminist movement.)

    This is the great weakness of academia-"peer review[pressure]".Very few academics have the backbone or moral fibre to go against the flow.
    Those that do are outcast from that select little club.
    Such anti-intellectualism is startling. 'Peer review' has nothing to do with 'herd behavior' - it has to do with naked exposure of ideas to the prodding tools of logic, science, evidence, and proof. By far most academics *do* have backbone (you should see how many fist fights I've witnessed even!) - academics aren't 'yes men', in fact they are some of the most egotistical brats I know (but, there you have it... I'm one too ) - the 'select little club' only exists in cults. The mainstream demands proof, and is a dynamic 'event' - being static would be the more likely proof of outside control. So, all in all, peer review is *necessary* and important, to keep religious nut jobs like Graham Hancock, Oral Roberts, Nigel Pennick, or the 'Creationists' from hijacking civilization.

    Again we are straying from the point or was that your intention?
    Sure, but it seems the topic is related. However, 'Halloween' is not Germanic in origin, nor Gaelic (or Brythonic) it is Roman Christian in origin, and unrelated to the Roman pagan religion of the time.

    Maybe I'll dress as Charlemagne this year, and cut down folk's trees for the 'trick'
    Last edited by Vestmannr; Sunday, September 26th, 2004 at 09:29 PM.
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    Also the Christian philosopher Vladimir Solovyev was highly influential in the development of Theosophy.
    Aye, and by extension Vladimir Lossky, Georges Florovsky, Alexander Schmemann, John Meyendorff - St. John Maximovitch had been pastor over the L'ECOF group, but he was contrary to the Sophiologists and the Parisians .
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

    Christianity came AFTER the season's celebration, and adopted it.
    (It doesn't matter how old the song is, I won't stop liking it).

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    It has nothing to do with 'fear' or 'academic pressure' - it has to do with the fact that the word 'Aryan' is Sanskrit, and has nothing do do with European history or pre-history. That, and I don't need flawed etymologies - for instance, one could make a far better case for Ireland coming from Greek "Eirene" - peaceful isle, than 'Aryan-land'. Such is the evidence for the use of the word 'Aryan'. I do understand the use of the word in German NS circles - they can use it there. It has nothing to do with Anglophones, however.

    "Aryan" and its variants are to be found in Persian,Old Irish and German.To confine the term to the Indo-Aryan language group is simplistic and as I have already said one application of the term.Frankly if Aryans wish to call themselves Aryans then surely that is their natural right to do so.
    By all means start a thread debating this term but let us please not deviate from the point of THIS thread which in case you have forgotten is Halloween.


    Again, there were no 'xtian kings'. There were Christian Kings and Emperors, but much of Northern Europe became Christian because of popular conversion (Britain particularly) - the few that were otherwise (such as Charlemagne and the Saxons, or St. Olaf in Norway) were just 'business as usual'. The various cults of the native Germanic superstitions had been at war with each other previously - Irminsul and Odinists hotly contested each other. Christianity entered the fray and won, nothing out of the usual. It was truly neither 'forced conversion' nor persecution. Those who argue for a forced conversion cannot provide examples of just *how* one forces religious belief - especially not with a large population. The truth is that most folk made their conversion upon very pragmatic principles upon the success of the religion, and for a smaller more committed group because they had sought it out.

    And what was the colonisation of Iceland all about then if not primarily a means to escape the intolerance of dictatorial xtian Nowegian kings?



    Europe is as Europe does.



    Yes, I'm familiar with the idea: 'its in our blood', 'listen to your blood', etc. However, historically I can say there have been no Odinists for at least hundreds of years, if not a millenium or more.

    Then how do you explain people such as I and the organisations that we are a part of?

    A 'living expression' if one accepts the idea that religion is encoded in the DNA and self-manifesting. I would make it akin to the Baptist idea of 'soul competency', which is what they believe the ability of each human soul to rightly respond to God and interpret Scripture correctly. It is your belief, so - there you have it. Good luck with it - I find nothing to convince me of such a position.

    I accept Jungs theory of the Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious.You are probably familiar with his essay on Wotan?



    Yes, of course - and I'll get back on point. The reason for mentioning it, however, was to give a 'heads up' that such writings are considered the 'loony fringe' now that they have had time to be tested. They weren't accepted 'right out' in their day either - except amongst a certain group that had political reasons to (particularly the nascent Feminist movement.)



    Such anti-intellectualism is startling. 'Peer review' has nothing to do with 'herd behavior' - it has to do with naked exposure of ideas to the prodding tools of logic, science, evidence, and proof. By far most academics *do* have backbone (you should see how many fist fights I've witnessed even!) - academics aren't 'yes men', in fact they are some of the most egotistical brats I know (but, there you have it... I'm one too ) - the 'select little club' only exists in cults. The mainstream demands proof, and is a dynamic 'event' - being static would be the more likely proof of outside control. So, all in all, peer review is *necessary* and important, to keep religious nut jobs like Graham Hancock, Oral Roberts, Nigel Pennick, or the 'Creationists' from hijacking civilization.

    Nigel Pennick is one of the most respected writers on esoteric subjects and brings a level of scholarly analysis which is sadly lacking within the field of Runelore.


    Sure, but it seems the topic is related. However, 'Halloween' is not Germanic in origin, nor Gaelic (or Brythonic) it is Roman Christian in origin, and unrelated to the Roman pagan religion of the time.

    The Celtic and Germanic worlds had equivalents to Halloween which you will be aware of and yet ignore.

    Maybe I'll dress as Charlemagne this year, and cut down folk's trees for the 'trick'
    Hmm,please keep your hands off my Irmunsul please!

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenDice
    http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

    Christianity came AFTER the season's celebration, and adopted it.
    You can keep repeating it, but it won't make it true. Christianity came *before* Halloween began - Halloween began in *Rome* as the Feast of All Saints for those of the Latin rite. Halloween did *not* begin in a Celtic territory, nor was it began as a response to a Celtic celebration falling on the same day. Seasons are universal human experiences, of course some of them are going to fall on the same date - same way I wouldn't insist that someone younger 'stole' my birthday for being born on the same day.
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    "Aryan" and its variants are to be found in Persian,Old Irish and German.To confine the term to the Indo-Aryan language group is simplistic and as I have already said one application of the term.Frankly if Aryans wish to call themselves Aryans then surely that is their natural right to do so.
    By all means start a thread debating this term but let us please not deviate from the point of THIS thread which in case you have forgotten is Halloween.
    The point is Halloween, yes - but we are speaking of supporting arguments now as well. In any case, the usage of Aryan regarding Northwestern Europeans is still based more on a bit of fancy and the early years of anthropology - IOW, when errors were common. That the Sanskrit term 'arya' has cognates in Celtic and Germanic languages is true - however, that does not necessarily mean that there was some 'Aryan' ancestral people for them all. I do understand that the term is important to those who have a political adherence to 20th c. German Nationalist Socialism.

    And what was the colonisation of Iceland all about then if not primarily a means to escape the intolerance of dictatorial xtian Nowegian kings?
    For that question I would referyou to The New History of Scotland, vol. 1, "Warlords and Holy Men - Scotland AD 80 -1000" by Prof. Alfred P. Smyth, from the U. of Kent. Specifically, to chapter 5, "Vikings: 'Warriors of the Western Sea." published 1984, by Edward Arnold Ltd., London.

    I would be willing to have this discussion in another thread, but I will give a short synopsis. The first Icelandic settlers were from the Hebrides, and were *Christian* - they settled mostly the SW area. They were followed by some folk who had *reverted* to heathenism in the Hebrides (very common in the Hebrides at that time). The cult of St. Columba was in evidence there (and continued into modern times.) It was only later Icelandic tradition that attempted to revision their settlement as being directly from Norway, rather than from the Norse colonies of the Scottish Hebrides and Ireland (Dublin.) The Norse settlement in Iceland, having the cult of St. Columba there from as early as the 880s, and from what we can tell now - continuous Christian activity at least in the southwest of Iceland since the days of the Irish papar.

    Then how do you explain people such as I and the organisations that we are a part of?
    I would say that it is a new religious expression co-opting the identity of a dead ancient religion, and primarily formed as a counter-cultural reaction against modern society. Nothing wrong with that - just, pretending to actually be the original religion or a continuation thereof is simply dishonest.

    I accept Jungs theory of the Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious.You are probably familiar with his essay on Wotan?
    Yes, but I'm afraid I'm not one of Jung's cultists. I do find him particularly interesting - his essay on UFOs and modern religion is helpful as well. And, even if he did supply a method for me to critique literature for a grade - I don't think he is the 'state of the art' as regards psychology anymore. Of course there is 'ancestral memory', and some of what he means about the integration of the anima and animus may be true, as well as that about archetypes and dreams. BTW, when I dream I *am* Wotan most of the time - I don't have my 'self-identity' in my dreams, but am Odin. Hehehe.

    Nigel Pennick is one of the most respected writers on esoteric subjects and brings a level of scholarly analysis which is sadly lacking within the field of Runelore.
    Yes, on esoteric subjects, and respected by occultists - however, he isn't as regards history, theology, or archaeology.

    The Celtic and Germanic worlds had equivalents to Halloween which you will be aware of and yet ignore.
    Yes, but 'equivalent' does not prove source or origin - far from it! Halloween *still* has a Roman Christian origin without any reference to any pagan feast. It isn't a matter of ignoring, it is simply that Halloween began in a place far away from Celtic and Germanic culture. Again, too many Protestant apologists and their children the Neo-pagan apologists, depend on the flawed methodology of Fraser's 'The Golden Bough' - because something occurs at the same time, has some external similarities, or occurs later in the same place - does not *prove* origin or relatedness.

    Hmm,please keep your hands off my Irmunsul please!
    Heh - its not *your* Irminsul. If you are an Odinist, then you would be the natural enemy of the Irminsul religion, as well as that of Nerthus or Freyr. In any case, as I look at the relief from the Externsteine I see the message that the old German Christians wanted us to see - the Irmensul tree is not 'cut off' - it assists in taking down Christ for the cross, providing a step for St. Joseph of Arimathea, and bowing down before the Apostle John, the patron of the far Western Church (Gallican/Celtic). BTW, you do know the Dream of the Rood belongs properly to those of Dumfries and Galloway - it is historically connected to that area, and especially through the Ruthwell Cross. It was simply an honest interpretation within the culture - which was proper for Christianity. Too many try to make it out like they were 'duping' folk, or 'robbing' rather than simply illuminating what was already there.
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    Do you deliberately spell my screen-names incorrectly? :eyes
    Damn, you're a quick one. Give the man a cigar. Is everyone in Detritus as smart as you are?

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    You can keep repeating it, but it won't make it true. Christianity came *before* Halloween began - Halloween began in *Rome* as the Feast of All Saints for those of the Latin rite. Halloween did *not* begin in a Celtic territory, nor was it began as a response to a Celtic celebration falling on the same day. Seasons are universal human experiences, of course some of them are going to fall on the same date - same way I wouldn't insist that someone younger 'stole' my birthday for being born on the same day.
    Halloween is based on Samhain, whether you Xtians agree or not. It doesn't matter what day it falls on. October the 31st is November Eve. It may have something to do with the fact it combined with your All Saints day but undoubtedly the festive season is about ghosts and the dead, no Xtian involved at all. Next you'll be debating that Christmas Day isn't really based on a pagan celebration .
    (It doesn't matter how old the song is, I won't stop liking it).

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