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Thread: Halloween Costumes

  1. #41
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    When did the Christinsanity cabal at Skadi grow so large? I can remember when Milesian and Tara's Vulva were the only Soldiers of YHWH here.

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    And who are these Christians? Those Evengelical nimwits who know absolutely squat about the Christian faith? :eyes

    As for Halloween being "pagan", I believe Frontiersman addressed this issue very well. In fact I just posted in the thread about Celtic Christianity about how neo-pagans are trying to de-emphasize the Christianity of Europe as some kind of gloss over for paganism, and how its totally bogus from a historical and even theological viewpoint. This certainly fits well into that topic.
    It is readily acknowledged by real academics that xtianity not only did not succeed in extinguishing Aryan heathenism and its store of knowledge but that heathenism,especially Germanic heathenism heavily influenced xtianity and its practices and has done so for 1,000-1,500 years.It wasnt a one way exchange.
    I draw your attention to "The Germanisation of Early Medieval Christianity" by James C.Russell.
    Last edited by Wuotans Krieger; Sunday, September 26th, 2004 at 08:45 PM.

  3. #43
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    Regradless of the time of year most Aryan cultures have an equivalent to this festival which is rooted in our pre-Christian past.To suggest otherwise is to lack knowledge or to be disingenuous.
    There was no such feast in Rome at the time that Halloween was established. "Aryan" is an outdated and incorrect term to begin with (Aryans are in South Asia, not in Europe.) And most importantly, European cultures were not all 'copies' of each other - Frazer's 'Golden Bough' was mistaken in its idea that similar elements in various cultures had the same roots and were 'equivalent'.


    So you are saying that there were no persecution and executions of pagans in Europe? Is that what you and Mother Church are alleging?
    Persecutions? Only in the case of post-Schism Roman Catholicism and the conquest of the West Slavs and Balts. For most of history, persecutions were far more pagan (and Jewish) persecutions of Christians - in some instances, the execution of a pagan cum 'modern hero' was an after effect of that pagan personality's extreme persecution of Christians (like the philosopher Hypatia, where neo-pagans tend to quote only *part* of the story - leaving out Hypatia's connection to the Jews in Alexandria,and involvement with them in the mass murder and persecution of Christians.) Many of those given as examples were simply Christian heretics, like Priscillian, who was not executed by the Church but by the Roman government for issues unrelated to their heresy (in Priscillian's case, it was for treasonous acts and disturbing the peace, his execution at Magnus Maximus - the Celtic Emperor's orders, and was *protested* by the Church, especially by St. Ambrose of Milan.)

    Strange that I have never encountered this expression until you used it here!
    It seems that you cant seem to make your mind up! Protestant? Druid? Catholic? Have you "tried" Odinism yet?
    Contrary to your assertin there is evidence of a matriarchal civilisation amongst Old Europeans prior to the arrival of the Indo-Europeans[Gimbutas].
    I'm not surprised you haven't heard the term ... Reconstructionists and others who take a much more academic approach to their paganism are those who tend to use the term. For more: http://wicca.timerift.net/index.html

    As for making my mind up, I'm done: I'm 'home' as a Celtic Christian of the Western/English rite in the Orthodox Catholic Church. I was raised Protestant, was a Druid, hung out with Odinists and Asatru (no need for me to be one), never was a Roman Catholic, became a Protestant minister with a Hebraist sect, then an Old Catholic, a Continuing Anglican, then Western Orthodox - where I'll stay til my death. It was a spiritual journey to 'find the path', now that I've found it I can complete it.

    As for Gimbutas - she had some good points, but her postulation of a 'Feminist Europe' is so much politicizing, and misinterpretation of data. 'Pictish' matriarchy was not so much a matriarchy, as a system of inheritance for men - adopted according to the Irish chronicles as part of a treaty with the Irish on the part of the Picts. Thus, in Pictish society a woman was 'tied' to a piece of property. To own the property, the man married the woman - and the children inherited from the mother. Women were part of the property then, and a form of 'title deed' - and the relation through the female side linked them to the Irish (noting that 'Pictish' areas of Scotland are genetically no different than other parts of Gael-dom.) That is just one example - or the attempt to make artifacts like the 'Venus of Willendorf' into idols of some Mother Goddess, when most likely they were not religious artifacts at all, but more likely a sort of fertility talisman, or pornography. I'm guessing Robert Graves 'the White Goddess' is to be yet another text 'given as proof'? Gimbutas, Graves, and Murray have been replaced in modern anthropology because their theories did not pass peer review - they are considered 'fringe', 'outdated', and especially sloppy and misleading. The idea of a 'Matriarchal Utopia' in Ancient Europe is just so much fantasy writing a la Jean Auel. I believe that the idea of Matriarchal societies has been pretty well handled in other threads by Pushkin/Taras Bulba on this forum.
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  4. #44
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    It is readily acknowledged by real academics that xtianity not only did not succeed in extinguishing Aryan heathenism and its store of knowledge but that heathenism,especially Germanic heathenism heavily influenced xtianity and its practices and has done so for 1,000-1,500 years.It wasnt a one way exchange.
    I draw your attention to "The Germanisation of Mediaeval Christianity".
    Yes I know about that book. And the Germanization of Christianity is highly overblown by the author. Germanization did not effect many areas of Christendom, mainly the East. An intersting enough it was the Germanized Christianity that was first to fall to liberalism and eventually Marxist "liberation theology". So much for the theory that Germanization "saved" Christianity.

    In fact this is what Yggdrasil has to say about this:


    http://home.ddc.net/ygg/cwar/pillar4.htm

    It is no accident that the Protestant Reformation/Revolution began in Germany.

    The Catholic notion of forgiveness was insupportable. Sin was immortal and could not be forgiven - ever!

    Salvation could come only if each German nailed himself to a cross and perished for his sins.

    Religions spread and flourish not because of their historical or theological truth, but because they are consistent with the pre-existing evolutionary psychology of the adopting group.

    As Christianity drifted northward from the Mediterranean it changed in fundamental ways.

    The dual code - amity and forbearance toward ones own kind and enmity towards competing groups was a given among all of Christ's contemporaries in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    In Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, Christ is speaking to his followers and announces a very stringent moral code of turning the other cheek and walking the extra mile. He uses the word "brother" throughout to make clear that this code of amity is to be applied to within-group relations. It is a code of amity so demanding that only the most committed would join, thus reinforcing group boundaries. He announced a code of sexual morality so stringent as to guarantee the genetic separation of the group for generations.

    In contrast to the mosaic law with its jealous god and collective guilt and punishment, the concept of sin announced by Christ was purely individual, for violation of the rules of amity that govern within-group relationships.

    Central to this notion of individual sin for breach of an exacting code of in-group amity was the expansive and generous notion of forgiveness, allowing a group member to remain within the group despite breaches of that exacting code.

    Christ's code for dealing with the competing out-groups - the Pharisees (followers of the Babylonian Talmud) and Levites - both of which are attempting to kill him and his followers - is equally clear.

    In Matthew 23 he calls them the "sons of hell" - the very personification of evil. When he encounters them in public Christ is deceptive and evasive, answering them with riddles and questions - ever mindful of the boundaries between speech that will allow him to continue his mission and speech that might get him killed prematurely - before he was ready to sacrifice himself for the individual sins of his followers and to reinforce their group identity.

    Christ inhabits a multi-cultural world, a world of competing tribal groups seeking to displace and kill their rivals.

    All of this was clearly understood by Christians for the first three centuries following Christ's death. The stringency of the moral code applicable to within-group relations was carefully balanced by the generous notions of forgiveness - all isolating mechanisms which conferred a practical survival advantage upon being Christian during the decline of the Roman Empire.

    But as Christianity moved North, Matthew 23 became utterly incomprehensible.

    The conspicuous lack of any reference by Christ to forgiveness of Pharisees and Levites would have been interpreted by any native of the Levant as compelling evidence that they were competing and hostile tribes at war with Christ and his followers. But as Christianity moved North, Pharisees and Levites were transformed from permanently hostile racial enemies into temporary aggregations of individuals possessed of erroneous thoughts.

    And as individual states of mind are transitory, the existence of Pharisees and Levites hundreds or thousands of years earlier could have no contemporary relevance.

    Christ's rants about Pharisees and Levites came to appear as inconsistent with the Sermon on the Mount, and Christianity became obsessed with translation to attempt to shed light on these inconsistencies.

    The critical words "neighbor" "alien" "sojourner" and "brother" are used hundreds of times and their meaning is absolutely clear from the context, if one is willing to see it. Accurate translation is not the problem.

    Similarly, the extent to which Christ was repudiating vast tracts of the Old Testament as "laws of men" in his testy and evasive exchanges with his tribal enemies became incomprehensible to the linear thought patterns of the northern European.

    The Christ who advocated turning the other cheek in Matthew 5 became completely inconsistent with the violent and aggressive Christ who grabbed a whip and drove the money changers from the temple by force in John 2, 15. Once you understand that Christ operated under the dual code, then the inconsistency disappears.

    But once you recognize that Christ lived according to the dual code, then if you are a Christian, you must adopt the dual code yourself, and that is a difficult stretch for our Northern Europeans.

    Sin and forgiveness also changed as Christianity moved North.

    Sin was no longer the violation of rules that applied to relations within an extended group based on blood relations, but became violations of an abstract and universal code similar in its reach and operation to Newtonian laws of physics.

    Sin was not conditional and local but cosmic and eternal, with the scream of its offense extending to the very edges of the universe - and the memory of violation of Christ's law surviving in the vast and expansive universe for an eternity.

    Likewise forgiveness became problematic and irrational. It was transformed from the emotional reaction one would expect from an uncle or cousin, anxious to reaffirm the values of the group and strengthen that group by rehabilitating a valuable member, into something unbounded by any human experience.

    How could one atone for violation of an abstract and universal truth without eternal and boundless suffering and sacrifice? What Catholicism had taken for granted for centuries became ever so problematic to the Northern European mind.

    The problem we face is not with Christianity, but with our own evolutionary psychology


    So yes we can blame the "Germanization" of Christianity for much of you pagans despise about the faith. In fact I do believe the source you mentions even argues that the notion of using violence and launching crusades against the infidels were products of this Germanization; wheras before Christian doctrines of warfare revolved around defense. Hmmmnn...........interesting.

    And I can quote a source debunking the argument that Christian notions of chivalry derive from German paganism. Nope, you find the basic arguments for chivalry in Paul's Epistles and among the writings of the Church fathers.

    As for the survival of heathenism, I've already dealt with this when concerning the Celtic tradition. Most of what Christianity absorbed was really more cultural than theological when one looks more closely. This is what we Christians call inculturation, that is we adapt Christianity to the local cultural traditions. This goes all the way back to the early church; when Roman Christians were not required to circumscise.

    And as I mentioned in the Celtic thread, the syncretisitc viewpoints have been overemphasized by many writers in order to try to protray Christianity as nothing more than a gloss over for paganism. Although it is interesting that the early syncretist theories actually tried to protray paganism as a proto-Christian faith. This quote from Dietrich Eckart probably explains this position best(in regards to German paganism):

    "In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need. And if we occasionally speak of Baldur, our words always contain some joy, some satisfaction, that our pagan ancestors were already so Christian as to have indications of Christ in this ideal figure."
    --Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin: A conversation with Adolf Hitler 1924


    So this attempt to de-Christianize European Christianity is bogus plain and simple!

  5. #45
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    It is readily acknowledged by real academics that xtianity not only did not succeed in extinguishing Aryan heathenism and its store of knowledge but that heathenism,especially Germanic heathenism heavily influenced xtianity and its practices and has done so for 1,000-1,500 years.It wasnt a one way exchange.
    I draw your attention to "The Germanisation of Mediaeval Christianity".
    Who are these 'real academics'? lol As for James C. Russell's work - it applies only to one distinct part of Early Medieval Christianity, and says nothing much more than Fr. John Romanides of U. of Thessaloniki had wrote: that there was a 'Frankish-Barbarian' perversion of the Christian faith that led to the Schism and eventual subversion of the Western Church. Russell's work is still under review, and is not yet the majority or accepted view of Medieval Christianity. Romanides' theory online here: http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.e...octrine.01.htm which has been rightly criticized for being unfair towards Charlemagne and the Frankish/Germanic peoples. In any case, the influence of Medieval Germany upon the rest of Christianity was minor - German Medieval Christianity was *far* more influenced by the Irish (and English, who were influenced by the Irish) through the "Schottenkloster". It is a fact that the missionaries were able to find some concordance in Germanic pagan belief with Christianity to help explain the faith - particularly with the Irminsul. The relief at the Externsteine pretty much is an illustration of this relationship, however. No doubt what was left of the old Germanic religions was absorbed and corrected by the Church as it did in every land.
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stríbog
    When did the Christinsanity cabal at Skadi grow so large? I can remember when Milesian and Tara's Vulva were the only Soldiers of YHWH here.
    Do you deliberately spell my screen-names incorrectly? :eyes

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    Oh yes, since there was a festivel around the same time as Halloween that must mean the bad old Christians stoled it from the pagans.

    :eyes

    Practically everything in European xtianity has been stolen from the heathen Germanic peoples of Europe.Mother Church realised that the force of the sword alone was not sufficient in maintaining its jealous and vicious hold on the people and so it had to "borrow" many customs,beliefs and practices from the heathens to make its religion appear remotely palatable to Ario-Germanic man."The Heliand" and "The Dream of the Rood" are obvious examples of how Mother Church tried to appeal to the Germanic warrior instinct within heathen man.
    I drwa your attention to the brilliant piece of scholarship by James C.Russell-"The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity".



    Oh dont start with this. Religious persecutions were a part of paganism as well. Need we forget that Caesar Augustus persecuted astrologers because of his personal disgust with the practice. Oh well, guess Dostoevsky was right when he stated that Roman Catholicism was more Roman than Catholic. :eyes


    I think that you will find that the Germanic heathen of yesteryear and today is far more tolerant towards different beliefs than Mother Church.




    LOL! Like what? Almost all literature supporting this position is absolute feminist BS(and not to mention much of it is written by Jews, what a coincidence!). Although I guess there is one thing I like about the typical argument about how the bad old Christians imposed patriarchy on the matriarchal pagans; Christianity held bring a sane social order to Europe!
    Not a very learned comment to make was it?So Gimbutas was a Jewess was she?

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stríbog
    When did the Christinsanity cabal at Skadi grow so large? I can remember when Milesian and Tara's Vulva were the only Soldiers of YHWH here.
    Its not a cabal, and I'm not a 'Soldier of YHWH', though I am a Milites pro Christi. Consider me a 'Grail Knight', like Lohengrin.

    Interesting you follow Theosophy. I was wondering if you were aware of the connection of Theosophy and the Theosophical society with the Independent Catholic movement (particularly the "Liberal Catholic Church")? Charges of Theosophy were also leveled against the Parisian School of the Russian Orthodox (the Sophiologists of St. Serge's in Paris, France - Bulgakov, Berdyaev, etc.) and their offspring the L'ECOF (Le Eglise Catholique Orthodoxe Francais). I haven't seen proof of that, but I've heard that both groups were quite deep in Theosophy.
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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    Not a very learned comment to make was it?So Gimbutas was a Jewess was she?
    Ever heard of Eisner's The Chalice and the Blade ? Thats the most famous and popular book out there proposing this theory of ancient matriarchies in Europe.

    Practically everything in European xtianity has been stolen from the heathen Germanic peoples of Europe.Mother Church realised that the force of the sword alone was not sufficient in maintaining its jealous and vicious hold on the people and so it had to "borrow" many customs,beliefs and practices from the heathens to make its religion appear remotely palatable to Ario-Germanic man."The Heliand" and "The Dream of the Rood" are obvious examples of how Mother Church tried to appeal to the Germanic warrior instinct within heathen man.
    I drwa your attention to the brilliant piece of scholarship by James C.Russell-"The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity".
    How nice of you to repeat yourself! :eyes

    I think that you will find that the Germanic heathen of yesteryear and today is far more tolerant towards different beliefs than Mother Church.
    As the Catholic writer GK Chesterton once stated "Tolerance is a virtue to those who dont believe in anything."

    And this certainly applies to many aspects of paganism, since Christianity thrived in many areas because of the shallow nature of paganism. Paganism often relied more on rituals than on actual doctrine(as many neo-pagans themselves admit). Rituals are nice, but by themselves they cannot fufill the true spiritual quest.

    Christianity had the advantage because of its intolerance. We're already seeing the poision that "tolerance" is imposing on our societies. Hell the pagans were more tolerant of the Jews than the Christians, who often demanded their blood. Hitler once countered the argument that the NS are intolerant by saying something along the lines of "Yes indeed, we are intolerant! We have one belief and we will fight for it to the bitter end!"

    Ah, yes the typical Christian attitude! Pagans are incapable of such fanaticism because of the nature of their faith, its too tolerant for that. Little wonder Himmler based the SS on the Christian Teutonic Knights, for the SS were NS crusaders. That would've made sense to their Christian ancestors but not their pagan ones.

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    Post Re: Halloween Costumes

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Its not a cabal, and I'm not a 'Soldier of YHWH', though I am a Milites pro Christi. Consider me a 'Grail Knight', like Lohengrin.
    I remain a Kozak at heart, true and faithful Ukrainian warriors!

    Interesting you follow Theosophy. I was wondering if you were aware of the connection of Theosophy and the Theosophical society with the Independent Catholic movement (particularly the "Liberal Catholic Church")? Charges of Theosophy were also leveled against the Parisian School of the Russian Orthodox (the Sophiologists of St. Serge's in Paris, France - Bulgakov, Berdyaev, etc.) and their offspring the L'ECOF (Le Eglise Catholique Orthodoxe Francais). I haven't seen proof of that, but I've heard that both groups were quite deep in Theosophy.
    Also the Christian philosopher Vladimir Solovyev was highly influential in the development of Theosophy.

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