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Thread: The Problem with Primitivism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe Jens Lornsen View Post
    Even a Rock will be crunched to dust one day !
    Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." - Christ

    I'll take Christ on His word, the rock will not perish. Everything is going according to the plan.
    "After the year 1900 people will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society." - St. Nilus, 430 AD

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    This is not the thread to discuss these matters - let's keep it on topic so we don't ruin Yaxley's thread.
    "After the year 1900 people will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society." - St. Nilus, 430 AD

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    Peoples will frown at the Amish, Mennonites etc. but they've an advantage modern Germanics don't have: their "primitive" lifestyle doesn't make them dependent on globalism and the economy. They're self-sufficient and don't depend on many modernisms, so in the event of a collapse, electronic, financial or otherwise, they will be among the ones to survive. They're segregated, self-sufficient and dedicated to their peoples and beliefs. They've a close knit community feeling. They still have an extended family system and traditional gender roles and occupations. Some peoples might find them religious sects but they're not bigots or zealots. They allow their children to experience the modern world (the Rumspringa is their rite of passage into adulthood). Despite the novelties of the modern world, most of them choose to be baptised and remain in the Amish/Mennonite community. Those who say we should be like the Amish probably have those positives in mind.

    Another positive which speaks for the Amish is their population growth. From an article:

    The rule-of-thumb is that Amish numbers double every generation. Because they prefer to live in smaller communities of about 30 families, population growth requires the founding of new settlements. When your way of life doesn’t depend on close connections with the global economy (quite the opposite, in fact) this isn’t so difficult. There is plenty of cheap farmland to be had for from America’s big cities. Remarkably, of the 500 or so Amish settlements, about half were founded in the 21st century.

    IF THE AMISH KEEP DOUBLING THEIR NUMBERS FOR ANOTHER CENTURY, THEN THERE WILL BE EIGHT MILLION OF THEM. IF THEY KEEP IT UP FOR TWO CENTURIES, AMERICA WILL BE A MAJORITY AMISH NATION.

    The internet was supposed to have conquered the tyranny of distance. Instead, the ‘knowledge workers’ of the world find themselves competing for cramped living quarters in a limited number of global cities. Meanwhile, the Amish, who deliberately and severely limit their use of digital technologies can take their pick of America’s wide open spaces. How’s that for an irony?
    I posted another article on this theme some time ago, I post here the link again: The Amish: America’s most sophisticated users of technology

    The Amish: America’s most sophisticated users of technology

    The Amish are better known for their rejection of modern technology than their large families (though the latter follows from the former, if you catch my drift). What’s less understood is why they choose to live without cars, televisions and many of the other things that we take for granted. It’s not out of a fundamentalist belief that things invented after a certain date are sinful. Nor is it because the Amish are simple-minded hicks unable to cope with new-fangled gadgetry. In fact, the opposite is true – the Amish are among the most sophisticated users of technology on the planet.

    It’s a point that becomes apparent in Michael J Coren’s interview with Jameson Wetmore for Quartz:

    “…the Amish [do not] view technology as inherently evil. No rules prohibit them from using new inventions. But they carefully consider how each one will change their culture before embracing it. And the best clue as to what will happen comes from watching their neighbors.

    “‘The Amish use us as an experiment,’ says Jameson Wetmore, an engineer turned social researcher at the Arizona State University’s School for the Future of Innovation in Society. ‘They watch what happens when we adopt new technology, and then they decide whether that’s something they want to adopt themselves.’”

    Within the Amish community, there are different sub-denominations of various degrees of strictness. Then there are ‘para-Amish’ groups, like the Mennonites, who come from the same Anabaptist tradition as the Amish, but are more accommodating of modernity. And, of course, when the Amish ride their horse-and-buggies into town, they share the same spaces as ordinary Americans.

    Therefore, they can observe a wide range of lifestyles from that of the Swartzentrubers (the most conservative of the Amish) all the way through to the completely secular.

    It’s a broad spectrum, but not one without clear dividing lines between Amish and non-Amish:

    “It’s interesting that the Amish have different districts, and each district has different rules about what’s allowed and what’s not allowed. Yet it’s very clear there are two technologies that, as soon as the community accepts them, they are no longer Amish. Those technologies are the television and the automobile.”

    Many of the Amish do use telephones, but they ban them from the home – confining them to phone shanties at the edge of the community. (Mobile phones, however, have confused matters somewhat.)

    The Amish relationship with technology, therefore, is negotiable – but, crucially, they have developed (retained?) the ability to make the big decisions at a community level – i.e. collectively and locally:

    “For the Amish, there are no rules prohibiting new technologies. So typically what will happen is one member of the community will say, ‘You know, I’m fed up with axes. I’m using the chainsaw.’

    “So maybe he goes out and begins to use a chainsaw. You might get some stern looks from neighbors, but officially it’s not prohibited. Every six months, the [Amish district councils] sit down and discuss. People are beginning to use chainsaws in our communities: Is this what we want? And then they have a conversation about it.”

    In the ‘English’ (i.e. non-Amish) world, we make decisions about technology at the level of the individual and, in some cases, the family. In practice, however, our autonomy is limited. New technology, and the social change that comes with it, is something that just happens to us.

    Wetmore mentions the social impact of the motorcar. Streets used to be for people – a playground for children, a meeting place for adults. With the coming of the car, that changed – children were literally driven out, and adults have to watch their step. It was a profound alteration to the everyday life of our communities, but how many of them ever made a deliberate decision whether to accept it or not?

    Wetmore quotes the motto of 1933 Chicago World Fair: “Science finds. Industry applies. Man conforms.”

    In Amish society, however, man doesn’t conform.

    The rest of us need to become technological non-conformists too. The implications of advances in artificial intelligence, robotics and genetic engineering are too big for us to continue as passive recipients of change.

    In the end this is not about our machines; it’s about us.

    The Amish make conscious decisions about which technologies enable them to remain Amish. Before long, we will need to decide which technologies allow us to remain human.
    Another good article: THE AMISH SHOW US WHAT THE WEST COULD’VE BEEN

    Three months ago, as I was walking by soccer fields in my local sports complex, I saw something that amazed me: two fields were being used by high-school aged Amish and Dutch Mennonite communities that were on a rare trip to the outside world.

    Admirably, the young women played on one field while the young men played on the other. Here, there was no sign of an egalitarian, co-ed, genderless safe space. Gender differences were acknowledged and respected.

    Even in the scorching summer heat, the girls wore modest squirts, that extended beyond their knees (in the same vein, the young men wore properly-fitting pants and shirts). The young girls also were healthy and fit. They had no tattoos, no piercings, no dyed, half shaven hair. There were no outward signs of brokenness. They were playing with a cordial innocence, the kind you’d expect from teenaged girls who haven’t been tarnished and soiled by consumerism, social media, and postmodern filth. They were beautiful, happy, and innocent.

    On the adjacent field, the young men were playing an old-fashioned, no-nonsense game of footy. No whining and certainly no bitching. Every player was getting on with their task with gravitas and determination. The young men were playing with an incredible intensity. They were determined to score, and to win. All forms of masculine virtues were on display.

    These scenes were bittersweet

    As a first-generation immigrant to the West, I had never witnessed anything like this. Sure, I’ve watched many soccer games. I’ve seen genders segregated. I’ve encountered groups of young men and women, who had not been physically marked by the degenerate ‘edgy’ fads of SJW culture. I’ve even seen modestly dressed women playing sports. But this was the first time I’ve seen all of the above displayed by Canadians of European ancestry.

    These scenes were bittersweet. Bitter, because it made me lament and yearn for a day and age when I too can take part in a society with such rich tradition and values. A society where men are not scorned or demeaned, but respected and esteemed. A society where women are not placed on an altar demanding to be worshiped. Here, there was an unerring feeling that these young women admired and even adored these young men.

    In a few years short years, these young men will marry these virgin, pure, and chaste young women. Left to the pastoral, traditional setting, where no liberal welfare state exists to pacify the masculine instincts, these men will protect these young women, provide for them, and in return, the women will cherish them and love them for it. The lack of a welfare state also means that these women will seek masculine virtues in their men. In the absence of a ‘generous’ and ‘stable’ state, they will seek a generous and stable husband.

    A violent diatribe against the modern West

    It was sweet, because this was an enormous vindication. These scenes were a visually violent diatribe against the degenerate, failing, and weak West. Here was a social group that was purposely stuck in time.

    After all, for many complex reasons, the Amish and Mennonite communities chose to be insular and rarely change their mode of traditional, pastoral living. Yet while they remain technologically “limited”, their social and group dynamics are superior to those of our modern Western Civilization.

    Drawing this into stark perspective, was the third field, that was occupied by a co-ed (i.e. non-segregated) Canadian group of young men and women playing soccer. The women were fat, obnoxious, and foul mouthed. They sported aggressive, masculine tattoos. Meanwhile, the men were weak and effeminate house-pets, almost subjugated and controlled by these vile women. The women were barking orders, and the men would do as they were told, without batting an eye-lash. Such are the rotten fruits that feminism has produced.

    The Amish however, rejected influences of the enlightenment, and by extension, all the false doctrines that came after it – Marxism, feminism, postmodernism. And because of that, they can bear the fruits of a superior existence. They are not afflicted by counter-intuitive ideologies that seek to disrupt the natural order of humanity, and create a deep-seated resentment, and fatal division. Instead, they are guided by Christian beliefs that not only bestow on them an abundance of virtue, but also social and group unity and cohesion. Men, women and children know their place in society.

    The Amish, an image of the West’s former self

    While we can always compare the modern West to pictures and movies of the its past self, why create hypotheticals and possible ‘straw-societies’? We can avoid speculation and introduce certainty into our analysis by drawing comparisons with communities like the Amish and Mennonites that are quite literally stuck in time.

    It is true that pastoral Germanic and Dutch traditions of the Amish are not wholly representative of an ever-cosmopolitanizing impulse throughout Europe at the time. However, rural farming communities were still a dominant part of the landscape. These societies strongly resemble the post-reformation, pre-enlightenment state of Western Civilization. They are an incredible snapshot into this bygone era. By extension then, the Amish and Mennonites are an image of the West’s former self.

    For these reasons, the Amish and Mennonite societies can be the control group when observing the Western experiment. The modern West, the test-tube that has been relentlessly inculcated with feminism, Marxism and postmodernism, is a decrepit and dying society, that just cannot wait to be conquered and subdued by virile foreign hordes. The control test-tube that has avoided these ideologies, the Amish and Mennonite society, has remained strong, self-sufficient and continues to yield an abundance of life-energy. Its people are self-assured and more alive. They are more human.

    The Amish are culturally superior

    How do we know the west has socially degenerated beyond recognition? Because it is far inferior to the cultural image of its former self. The Amish are far superior. They’re youth are alive and happy. Our youth are confused, sad and anxious. Their young men are brooding with confidence, testosterone, and masculinity. Ours are doubtful and weak. Their young women are feminine and willing to be led. Ours are aggressive and lack virtue. They’re posterity will inherit great riches, born about by tradition, patriarchy and God-fearing. Ours will inherit doubt and depravity.

    Far after the degenerating West collapses into a matriarchal, egalitarian third-world basket-case, barbarian hordes will marvel at Amish and Mennonite communities as outposts of a once-great civilization.

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    Another article about the Hutterites. I highlight some of the important things: Here’s What One Of America’s Most Isolated Communities Can Teach Us About Getting Along

    After spending just one day with the Hutterites of Liberty County, Montana, Jill Brody recalls she was “hooked.”

    The educator and photographer learned of the reclusive ethnoreligious group while researching a book on ranch life in central Montana. Locals told her that if she wanted to see what good farming looked like, she ought to visit the Hutterites.

    That advice would change the way she thought about life and inspire a portfolio of photos titled “Hidden in Plain Sight,” which captures the world within these small, ultra-traditional religious communes.


    The Hutterites were not Brody’s first exposure to people from isolated rural areas. At a young age, she had traveled from New York to North Carolina to attend summer camp.

    “There were all these nice Jewish kids from New York, and most of the counselors were from the Deep South,” she said. Many of them had limited education, which Brody said she and her youthful peers mistook for a lack of intelligence.

    With age and experience, Brody came to realize that she had misjudged them and the wisdom and ingenuity demanded by rural life. “They were pretty amazing people,” she said.

    Decades later, she found herself living and working among some other pretty amazing people in one of America’s most isolated communities.

    The Hutterites are Anabaptists ― Christians who believe people should be baptized not as infants but only when they are old enough to confess their sins and choose baptism for themselves. They fled persecution in Austria during the Protestant Reformation and eventually ended up living across parts of North America’s Great Plains. According to National Geographic, there were roughly 40,000 Hutterites living in 480 colonies in the U.S. and Canada as of 2012.

    The group is named for a 16th century leader, Jakob Hutter, who preached the tenets of pacifism and communal living. Nearly all property in a Hutterite colony is owned by the colony ― a practice that differentiates them from other rural religious communities, such as the Amish and Mennonites.

    Their guiding doctrine comes from a verse in the New Testament. Acts 2:44 reads: “All the believers live together and have everything in common.”


    Unlike the Amish, the Hutterites utilize various forms of modern technology. They generally sustain their communities through industrial agriculture, selling frozen meat, chicken, eggs, milk and vegetables to large local grocery chains.

    Some also offer services in commercial construction and mechanics. Brody said a Hutterite man could build you a Mercedes and because every Hutterite woman is given a sewing machine when she marries ― the only possession she will ever own ― “any of them could get a job as a seamstress in Hollywood.”

    Initially, while researching her book on ranchers, Brody didn’t pay much attention to the local Hutterites. “They were just these anachronistic people who wore brightly colored clothing and spoke with a funny sort of Germanic type of accent,” she said. “They were friendly but distant.”

    But she took up an offer from some other area residents to introduce her. She did know that the Hutterite communities were insular, highly patriarchal and guided by strict religious tenets. Brody, who is not religious, wasn’t expecting to enjoy herself.

    “For whatever reason ― maybe it’s the way I am or the way they are ― there was space made for me to come and do something which they don’t normally like people doing, which is taking pictures of and being with them,” she said.

    Brody photographed three separate Hutterite colonies in Liberty County. Her work honors the many technical skills that allow the communes, which she said consisted of about 150 people each, to function. But more profoundly, it captures the relationships that develop when a community is simply too small to allow itself to become divided.

    “I thought I had a sense of who Hutterites were,” Brody said. “Then as you get to know them better, you realize they’ve got this thing ― this little jewel that they pass on to each other, that we don’t have anymore.”

    Brody described this “jewel” as “the ability to be together,” which she observed while spending time with the women in the colonies. Whether they personally liked each other or not, she said their faith called on them to “live together and have all things in common.”

    It’s a principle the Hutterites are committed to living by, no matter how difficult a situation or personality they encounter.

    “There are just destructive people ― in almost any community, you’ll find at least one,” Brody said. “So how do you handle that? Do you ostracize them? In a tiny community, can you afford to do that? No. So you learn to adjust and adjust and make space for that person to function.”

    The Hutterite women accommodate one another’s individual differences in order to protect the health of the entire community. When a person is destructive or obnoxious or insolent ― either in personality or in reaction to the community’s rules ― the group adjusts their expectations. This creates a space for the disruptive person to function within the community and, perhaps, create a path to contentment they may not have otherwise found.

    “When people started asking me about what I was doing there and what I was looking at, I realized that’s what I was looking at,” Brody said. “I was looking for a piece of the puzzle in me or in us, in general, that is missing.”

    Tolerance is not the first thing one expects to find in a community that rejects almost everything outside itself. But when nothing from the outside world is allowed in, they have no choice but to cherish and protect each other.

    “Part of what they came to understand was you don’t have to love everybody. You don’t even have to like them,” Brody said. “But you need to get along, and you need to help.”

    “That’s a huge lesson this country has completely forgotten,” she added.
    Also, a documentary about the Hutterists:

    Utopian communities rarely last. How have the Hutterites done it over four centuries?

    Rooted in the Anabaptist movement, from which groups such as the Amish and the Mennonites also derive, the Hutterites first formed in what is now Austria’s Tyrol in the 16th century under the leadership of Jakob Hutter. The sect fled persecution across the continent before ultimately relocating to Canada and the United States during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. For his film The Hutterites (1964), the Canadian director Colin Low was given rare access to a Hutterite colony in Alberta, where he detailed the community’s history, beliefs and social structure, emphasising the ways in which the Hutterites both intersected with and insulated themselves from the modern world. The resulting documentary is a rich portrait of a resilient sectarian society characterised by its strict devotion to simplicity and community inspired by an idiosyncratic interpretation of New Testament Christian values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Yaxley View Post
    1. People who say we need to be 'more like the Amish' are, at best, very foolish. At worst they're shills trying to make us look stupid. The Amish are powerless, inbred, & downright weird (I live in the Midwest and have met many of them).
    I to have lived around them most of my life and what you say is untrue. Amish are just like most people some are decent and some are not. To me Amish are no less foolish or weird than any other Christians.

    The Amish are apolitical and the reason they stay primitive is to preserve their culture and community and thus in turn preserve their religion.

    3. Technology rarely goes backwards and the changes it has brought to society aren't going to simply disappear.
    Technology is doomed to fail. That does not mean we should not use it, but we should never become dependent on it.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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