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Thread: Irish, Scots and Welsh Are NOT Celts

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    Post Irish, Scots and Welsh Are NOT Celts

    Celtic nations like Ireland and Scotland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with "Celts" - the name commonly used for a group of people from ancient Alpine Europe, scientists say. "There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations... but the affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin," said Daniel Bradley, co-author of a genetic study into Celtic origins.

    Early historians believed the Celts - thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany - invaded the Atlantic islands around 2 500 years ago. But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking. Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe.

    The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula. "What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older... 6 000 years ago or earlier," Bradley told Reuters. He said people may have moved up from areas around modern-day Portugal and Spain at the end of the Ice Age.

    The similarities between Atlantic "Celts" could also suggest these areas had good levels of communications with one another, he added. But the study could not determine whether the common genetic traits meant "Celtic" nations would look alike or have similar temperaments. Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features.


    Source: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...4736421617B264

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    I don't know what this guy is talking about. The Celts came from the Iberian peninsula in several waves. This DNA work doesn't throw any new light on anything.

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    There's a whole 'nuther thread here on the same article.

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    The answer is simple.

    The Irish, Scots and Welsh are certainly Celts.
    Celtic is an ethno-liguistic term. They all speak Celtic languages and still retain Celtic customs. Therefore there can be no argument that they are Celts.

    The Celts themselves were not a homogenous people, but a culture that spread from Denmark to Iberia and the Atlantic ocean to the Black Sea.
    There are no "Celtic genes", so a genetic survey is meaningless.
    Considering that the Celts were present in Iberia and migrated from there to the British Isles in one of their waves as the good doctor said above, genetic similarities are hardly suprising

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    Yes, I agree with what Milesian said.
    For any modern ethno-linguistic family, the origins are in some
    small group of people, a relatively small population, so,
    genetically 99% of any people are not original Germanics, Slavs, Celts, etc.

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    In this scottish journal you can read the article :


    "We are not Celts at all but Galicians"


    http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    Last edited by Newgrange; Tuesday, September 28th, 2004 at 03:25 AM.

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Newgrange

    Yup, as mentioned previously, there are genetic links between Iberian and the Celts of Britain and Ireland that is likely of Paleolithic origin.
    This doesn't mean none of them were Celts (there were Celts and Celt-Iberians in Iberia too), it just means that the Celts at the very least did not eridicate the pre-Celtic populations but rather interbred with them.

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    Some Irish, some Scots and Welsh are Celts linguistically and culturally.But they are not celts in therms of race. They are genetically a pre celtic population related to Iberian Peninsula (and maybe North Africa ) from paleolithic origins.They were ''Celtized'' by Celtic Invaders from central Europe during the Bronze Age. They were the ''ulke-mediterraneans'' and probably spoke a language similar to modern basque, like the ancient Iberians ( before the IE invasions - Celtics , Romans and Germans ). An ancient scandinavian population can be also related to this old mediterranean spread.


    I agree with the concept that in the most part of history the Celts were not a homogenous people, but a culture.The original celts were a probably fair group derived from the Battle-Axe people who mixed with many other groups during their conquers.
    Last edited by Euclides; Thursday, September 30th, 2004 at 04:51 AM.

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    Post Re: Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclides
    Some Irish, some Scots and Welsh are Celts linguistically and culturally.But they are not celts in therms of race.
    As far as I'm aware there was never a Celtic "Race", but rather a Celtic culture. It's homelands according to archaeology are along Switzerland, Austria, south western France and southern Germany. It may have appeared amongst Alpine peoples as likely as by some Battle Axe group.


    They are genetically a pre celtic population related to Iberian Peninsula (and maybe North Africa ) from paleolithic origins.They were ''Celtized'' by Celtic Invaders from central Europe during the Bronze Age. They were the ''ulke-mediterraneans'' and probably spoke a language similar to modern basque, like the ancient Iberians ( before the IE invasions - Celtics , Romans and Germans ). An ancient scandinavian population can be also related to this old mediterranean spread.


    I agree with the concept that in the most part of history the Celts were not a homogenous people, but a culture.The original celts were a probably fair group derived from the Battle-Axe people who mixed with many other groups during their conquers.
    Euclides, is there anyway we can say for sure that Celts did not set foot in Britain or Ireland? There is historical documentation of a Celtic migration into Iberia as well as migrations into Britain and Ireland from there. Do you believe these accounts to be wrong? As there are no genetic markers for a heterogenous people such as the Celts, would I be correct in saying that we cannot use genetics to say one way or another that Celts did / did not migrate into these lands? Also, these markers are present in general (particulary Connaught) but not universal. Even moving from western Ireland to eastern Ireland we find it's prevalence declines.

    I recently read that the Bell Beaker people also did not migrate to the British Isles and Ireland but merely their culture. There are also those who say that no Anglo-Saxons migrated to Britain either.
    I'm growing skeptical that soon we will be asked to accept that no peoples migrated anywhere and everything is merely a product of cultural diffusion.

    Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if a single Indo-European never set foot in the isles, but I just find it hard to believe that the historical acounts are wrong, that cultures and languages spread so far without a single Celt setting foot anywhere near the place and different phenotypes appeared without migrating peoples carrying them.

    If the Celts inter-bred with pre-Celtic population, would it not be expected that Megalithic markers were still retained anyway? As we don't know what the genetics of the original Celts were (assuming they were even homogenous) then isn't it merely speculative to say they did or didn't migrate here or there as there is no plausible way to test that hypothesis genetically?
    Last edited by Milesian; Thursday, September 30th, 2004 at 10:37 AM.

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