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Thread: "Toxic Masculinity"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Mass-immigration is result of decisions of political leaders (bit like .... wars?). Individual citizens (men or women) haven't had much of say on those. But with feminism? Half of citizens have supported it internally. More a less.
    Most people just follow the trends of the day, without putting much effort and contemplation in which positions and opinions to hold. Just as the population's support and compliance with mass-immigration has grown out of restless propagation by financial and political elites, so has the feminism we see today. It has become a weapon to be used against the Nation. If we could go back to a time where a single job could feed and house a whole family, and mothers had the freedom to stay at home to care and nurture their young children, I believe a lot of women would trade modern feminism for that. But the financial and political establishment has every reason to be opposed to such an order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Good for you. Other way you would probable need to look for your spouse outside of Scandinavia.
    I'm a Nationalist. My first and foremost concern is the survival and wellbeing of my People. Concepts like voting and democracy are irrelevant and worthless to me if they stand in conflict with the aforementioned aim. We all know how women generally vote, and we all see the consequences of this. I wish reality was different, and hope it will be some day. But as things stand now, I can't see how one can be a Nationalist and still think giving women the right to vote was a good idea. If one does, they are a feminist and democratist first, and Nationalist second. I'm not saying our current situation is all women's fault. But we certainly would be in a considerably better position if women's suffrage never came about. That's just a fact.

    But don't worry, I also don't think any man voting anything "left" of the Sweden Democrats really should be voting. Democracy is not some 'holy cow' I wish to sacrifice my Nation for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Can you name some modern-day feminism (issues) in Sweden?
    For example personally I have never supported attacks against men.
    The myth of the wage gap, for one. Then there's the idea of women having a right to kill their unborn infants whenever they please, on the government's expense, solely on the basis of it being located inside the woman's body. Otherwise it's the general animosity towards men that I find disturbing; raising women to be viewed as the guardians of all that is good in society, while men are to be seen as little more than violent, corrupt and oppressive savages unless they let women walk all over them.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Most people just follow the trends of the day, without putting much effort and contemplation in which positions and opinions to hold. Just as the population's support and compliance with mass-immigration has grown out of restless propagation by financial and political elites, so has the feminism we see today. It has become a weapon to be used against the Nation.
    Maybe so someway, but if those trends are heavily against peoples own visions/believes (their values & morals) ... they will not accept those just like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    If we could go back to a time where a single job could feed and house a whole family, and mothers had the freedom to stay at home to care and nurture their young children, I believe a lot of women would trade modern feminism for that. But the financial and political establishment has every reason to be opposed to such an order.
    We can not turn the time back. Not me, not you, not anybody. So this discussion is irrelevant. If we want to get same or similar ''results'', the tools needs to fit present time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I'm a Nationalist.
    I know. I don't like much of any -ism or religions or anything which makes people fanatic for some idea/ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    My first and foremost concern is the survival and wellbeing of my People. Concepts like voting and democracy are irrelevant and worthless to me if they stand in conflict with the aforementioned aim. We all know how women generally vote, and we all see the consequences of this. I wish reality was different, and hope it will be some day. But as things stand now, I can't see how one can be a Nationalist and still think giving women the right to vote was a good idea. If one does, they are a feminist and democratist first, and Nationalist second. I'm not saying our current situation is all women's fault. But we certainly would be in a considerably better position if women's suffrage never came about. That's just a fact.
    I know what you mean. Ask yourself: can you save someone who don't want to be saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    But don't worry, I also don't think any man voting anything "left" of the Sweden Democrats really should be voting. Democracy is not some 'holy cow' I wish to sacrifice my Nation for.
    Keep in minds...voters are voters...politicians are ones to make final decisions. There are lots of women politicians in Sweden, but still even more men politicians. And that was even more so at 1970's and 1980's then this madness started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    The myth of the wage gap, for one.
    If you mean salaries only ... it is not a myth. But in Sweden women's euro is more closer to 1 euroa vs what it is here in Finland.
    More than 90 cents anyway. Yes, I would say it quite close. Or it is ''ok''. This is not a problem as such. Do just a few feminist keep this on the table or majority of women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Then there's the idea of women having a right to kill their unborn infants whenever they please, on the government's expense, solely on the basis of it being located inside the woman's body.
    What comes to kids...I someway admit that mens' position is too weak.

    1.) Abortions:
    Sorry...abortion is not a easy thing. As a baby will grow inside of WOMAN's body ... this can never be 50:50 issue. And it doesn't matter much is it then 70:30 or 80:20 issue ... as anyway ... women will be one to make the final decision. As long as we don't have test-tube babies.

    2.) Divorces:
    There have been studies (in Finland) with kids below 13 years .... they named the most important person in their lifes. Who you think they mainly named? Yes, their own mother (no mater the sex). The result is partly natural as mothers will spend more time with kids as they are very small and mother often stays someway closer to them even as children are growing up a bit.

    So with possible divorces... should kids be ordered to live more with their Dad's? I doubt that. But yes ... Dad's should have better rights to spend some time with their own kids. Now mother (if the divorce has been bad/ugly) can make that pretty hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Otherwise it's the general animosity towards men that I find disturbing; raising women to be viewed as the guardians of all that is good in society, while men are to be seen as little more than violent, corrupt and oppressive savages unless they let women walk all over them.
    Sorry, I don't notice any systematic animosity against men. Are't you bit emotional now? Walk over man? What that even means? If we would be a couple and I would ask you to beat the carbets .... would I then ''walk over'' you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    If you mean salaries only ... it is not a myth. But in Sweden women's euro is more closer to 1 euroa vs what it is here in Finland. More than 90 cents anyway. Yes, I would say it quite close. Or it is ''ok''. This is not a problem as such. Do just a few feminist keep this on the table or majority of women?
    From what I understand it is mostly a fable. When feminists bring up the wage gap they either do not know or forget to mention that the so called wage gap does not take in to account factors like kind of work and hours worked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    From what I understand it is mostly a fable. When feminists bring up the wage gap they either do not know or forget to mention that the so called wage gap does not take in to account factors like kind of work and hours worked.
    I don't know what or how feminists uses that kind of studies ... but statistics lies ALWAYS a bit. We all know that. This one is not a exception.

    I think they (who makes these studies) tries to notice all the possible things ... for example the weekly working hours ... as well as that is possible .... but yes .... some people (white collars) works much more than their official weekly working hours are. Other things? Are you working in public sector or private sector, what is your working experiences? Are you are working in bigger company or smaller one? Are you working in capital city or country sides etc. Do you have subordinates and if you do .... how many? Etc. There are many many things.

    Still ... no matter what ...if women are asking bit more money ... who really cares? Big deal? That is not away from men. Same like doctors salaries are not away from welders salaries.

    Oh, I think much bigger issue would be the claims of feminists that husbands should keep some parental leaves as well (even forced to .... based by laws). Meaning if employer is hiring my age of person ... he can ''assume'' that younger women (like me) will make some babies in next 10 years period ... see that too complicated (= unnecessary extra costs and troubles) ... and goes and hires a guy instead of me.
    Also by feminists .... the maternity leaves (Nordic countries have the best system in the world) will ''destroy'' women changes to have similar careers as men. So they want to balance those matters ... as putting/sending men at home too.

    If I would be a guy .... I would be more concerned about this; not some talks are womens' 1 euro ... is that 85 cents, 90 cents or 92 cents. Nobody knows for sure anyway.

    But what I know, I'm just young blonde woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I think they (who makes these studies) tries to notice all the possible things ... for example the weekly working hours ... as well as that is possible .... but yes .... some people (white collars) works much more than their official weekly working hours are. Other things? Are you working in public sector or private sector, what is your working experiences? Are you are working in bigger company or smaller one? Are you working in capital city or country sides etc. Do you have subordinates and if you do .... how many? Etc. There are many many things.
    From what I have understand the researchers did took into account multiple factors. But most people claim the existence of the wage gap look at the overgeneralized picture that does not take those factors in to account.

    Still ... no matter what ...if women are asking bit more money ... who really cares? Big deal? That is not away from men. Same like doctors salaries are not away from welders salaries.
    Irrelevant in relation to the so called wage gap and the claims underlying it. If someone working in a certain field is being underpaid for the amount and quality of work done in comparison to other workers in said field, said worker should be able to request a raise.

    Oh, I think much bigger issue would be the claims of feminists that husbands should keep some parental leaves as well (even forced to .... based by laws). Meaning if employer is hiring my age of person ... he can ''assume'' that younger women (like me) will make some babies in next 10 years period ... see that too complicated (= unnecessary extra costs and troubles) ... and goes and hires a guy instead of me.
    Also by feminists .... the maternity leaves (Nordic countries have the best system in the world) will ''destroy'' women changes to have similar careers as men. So they want to balance those matters ... as putting/sending men at home too.
    Lovely, how you bring up an other issue . Same could be said for a guy who is married versus one who is single. He might want to start a family, or already has one, and want to be able to support his family financially. My example of course presumes that the wife of said guy wants to be a homemaker. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    From what I have understand the researchers did took into account multiple factors. But most people claim the existence of the wage gap look at the overgeneralized picture that does not take those factors in to account.
    Sorry, I can not talk behalf of the most of people ... as I'm not inside of their heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Irrelevant in relation to the so called wage gap and the claims underlying it.
    Underlaying or overlaying it. I don't care shit about it. Some minor (men based) groups are rising their salaries as stopping whole society. For me they are not far from being war criminals (causing lots of damages to home country). So do I care some talks of feminists about women and men salaries? Bloody Hell ... I won't!

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Lovely, how you bring up an other issue .
    Just because I kept it bigger matter (what comes to feminists talks or targets).

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Same could be said for a guy who is married versus one who is single. He might want to start a family, or already has one, and want to be able to support his family financially. My example of course presumes that the wife of said guy wants to be a homemaker. Please correct me if I am wrong.
    A guy being single is nothing ''positive'' (if he is any older).
    Just because that might give the next ideas to employer:
    * What's ''wrong'' with him?
    * How quickly/easily he will quiet, change his jobs and move to another place?

    If the work requests lots of over night travelings (even abroad) ... no doubt...then being single man can be seen as a benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Some minor (men based) groups are rising their salaries as stopping whole society.
    Sorry, but I am not completely sure what you mean here. And also why would some men raising their salaries have such an effect and some women raising their salaries not.

    Just because I kept it bigger matter (what comes to feminists talks or targets).
    Employee benefits is a bit of a different issue. Alto I concede that there is some overlap with wages. Since it relates to compensation for work being done. So it probably need to be taken in to account, which of course would mean that one could argue that a working women that has the right to paid maternal leave is actually being paid more then a man doing the same work.

    * What's ''wrong'' with him?
    I do not know if that might be an issue. And the same could be said for single older women. But in my experience that is not an issue. What is more important is the question if he is able to do the job.

    * How quickly/easily he will quiet, change his jobs and move to another place?
    The answer to that question would be related to his work related credentials. And would actually lead to either higher compensation being offered, or him being able to negotiate for higher compensation. In order to lower the risk that he change jobs because of a better offer elsewhere.

    If the work requests lots of over night travelings (even abroad) ... no doubt...then being single man can be seen as a benefit.
    Not to mention that he might not want to take time off to spend time with his family. And also an higher expectation to work overtime, or on holidays.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Sorry, but I am not completely sure what you mean here. And also why would some men raising their salaries have such an effect and some women raising their salaries not.
    Quickly two groups for example:
    Ice-breaker (ships) men at winter times.
    Svedores at harbors .... stopping the exportation.

    ...and because women won't work on those jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Employee benefits is a bit of a different issue.
    . Yes it is bigger: Not having a job at all .... vs having a job & paid bit less via that?

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Alto I concede that there is some overlap with wages. Since it relates to compensation for work being done. So it probably need to be taken in to account, which of course would mean that one could argue that a working women that has the right to paid maternal leave is actually being paid more then a man doing the same work.
    Well...if that is really the biggest issue/problem/unfairness? ... then this discussion is useless ...and we can stop right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    I do not know if that might be an issue. And the same could be said for single older women.
    True, but bit different ways. Single older women are often seen very strick on their works (maybe boring as a persons).
    Single men: perhaps using more time to something else than working...

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    But in my experience that is not an issue. What is more important is the question if he is able to do the job.
    Oh, that is more like first the requirement. You choose between candidates who can get job done! But maybe Holland is different...

    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    The answer to that question would be related to his work related credentials. And would actually lead to either higher compensation being offered, or him being able to negotiate for higher compensation. In order to lower the risk that he change jobs because of a better offer elsewhere.
    Job markets are not similar in all western countries....


    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Not to mention that he might not want to take time off to spend time with his family. And also an higher expectation to work overtime, or on holidays.
    No more than annually offered (4 weeks summer holiday, 1 week winter holiday plus local holiday: Christmas, Eastern, Independence day, etc.) ... based on laws. Very rare keeps more than those those, no matter are they single or married. Sorry. No differences here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Maybe so someway, but if those trends are heavily against peoples own visions/believes (their values & morals) ... they will not accept those just like that.
    The trick is to gradually shift the values and morals over time, by the means of education systems, media and popular culture. Slowly enough so the frog doesn't know that it is being boiled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    We can not turn the time back. Not me, not you, not anybody. So this discussion is irrelevant. If we want to get same or similar ''results'', the tools needs to fit present time.
    We can do whatever we want, as long as we put our mind to it and get enough people involved. Still, my point is that women and society as a whole got a rotten deal, which turned out to be much different from what it was marketed as. From your own point of view, what perks of any real value has feminism offered you that, say, a woman in the 60s was denied? And do feel these perks outweigh those that have been lost due to feminism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I know. I don't like much of any -ism or religions or anything which makes people fanatic for some idea/ideas.
    Well, conformism is also an -ism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I know what you mean. Ask yourself: can you save someone who don't want to be saved?
    I view it the same way I would treat a suicidal friend or family member. I can't just stand by and watch them take their own life. I would do anything to help them change their mind and see the light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    If you mean salaries only ... it is not a myth. But in Sweden women's euro is more closer to 1 euroa vs what it is here in Finland.
    More than 90 cents anyway. Yes, I would say it quite close. Or it is ''ok''. This is not a problem as such. Do just a few feminist keep this on the table or majority of women?
    Yes, women as a whole earn less than men as a whole. But the myth of the wage gap states that women doing the exact same job and working the exact same hours as a man receives a lower salary. I have never ever seen any evidence of that in any Western country. Plus, the difference in income between men and women is skewed largely due to a small percentage of men in top positions who earn an insane amount over National the average. The vast majority of men don't have a considerably different salary than the average woman. But that is largely ignored by feminists, who only want to bunch all males together as one homogenous group and scream at the "patriarchy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Sorry...abortion is not a easy thing. As a baby will grow inside of WOMAN's body ... this can never be 50:50 issue. And it doesn't matter much is it then 70:30 or 80:20 issue ... as anyway ... women will be one to make the final decision. As long as we don't have test-tube babies.
    I think there's a limit to what powers a mother should hold over the life of her unborn children. Most feminists seem to think otherwise. That is where the slogan "my body, my choice" comes into the picture. But the fact is, it is not just her body, but also the body of an innocent fetus that comes into the question. At the early stages of pregnancy, I think the mother should have the sole say in regards to the fetus, but after a certain point in development, one has to begin to see the fetus as an individual of its own, and men and the surrounding society should also have a say in whether or not they want to be complicit in such an act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    There have been studies (in Finland) with kids below 13 years .... they named the most important person in their lifes. Who you think they mainly named? Yes, their own mother (no mater the sex). The result is partly natural as mothers will spend more time with kids as they are very small and mother often stays someway closer to them even as children are growing up a bit.
    I'm not surprised, and would answer the same way too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Sorry, I don't notice any systematic animosity against men. Are't you bit emotional now? Walk over man? What that even means?
    Nah, I'm fine. By 'men let themselves be walked over by women' I mean men never letting themselves take their own side, or never operate from their own perspective. According to feminist, men are supposed to feel a sense of shame and guilt for being men, and are required to prove themselves as supporters of their ideology and make up for the perceived wrongs of past generations of men committed against women.

    I recall when I was in elementary school, being taught about female enfranchisement and their supposed oppression by the hands of males. I told my (female) teacher that I felt shameful about being male due to how women had been treated in the past. Her answer was that "it was up to me and my generation of males to make up for that". Her answer wasn't that I had no reason to feel shame, or that the past was none of my fault, or that indeed men have done great deeds to protect the women of their Nations. No, it was instead that I should assume the guilt that was projected unto me and be an obedient servant to the wishes of women. That's the kind of BS that screws with the head of a lot of young men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    If we would be a couple and I would ask you to beat the carbets .... would I then ''walk over'' you?
    I would happily beat your carpets, FS, as long as you reward me with a decent back rub afterwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    The trick is to gradually shift the values and morals over time, by the means of education systems, media and popular culture. Slowly enough so the frog doesn't know that it is being boiled.
    That would need lots of time and globally long term planning. And even then it is risky .... might not work if people will not ''accept'' the ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    From your own point of view, what perks of any real value has feminism offered you that, say, a woman in the 60s was denied? And do feel these perks outweigh those that have been lost due to feminism?
    First of all...the world has changed a lot since 1960's. Many many ways which has nothing to do with western world's feminism. Some to mentioned: population grown, global warming, globalization (manufacturing work escapes from Europe), Syria's war etc.
    So comparing life in 60's and today? Are't that easy. As even without feminism life would not be similar today as it has been 1960's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar;h1251469
    Well, conformism is also an -ism.
    Oh, wiseguy now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I view it the same way I would treat a suicidal friend or family member. I can't just stand by and watch them take their own life. I would do anything to help them change their mind and see the light.
    You understand that you can not safe all alone, probable not even many?

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Yes, women as a whole earn less than men as a whole.
    That's clear. Still in Finland woman CEOs are clearly more common now than 10-15 years ago. The trend reach even there. Still the biggest ''heave league'' listed companies don't (yet?) have any woman CEO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    But the myth of the wage gap states that women doing the exact same job and working the exact same hours as a man receives a lower salary. I have never ever seen any evidence of that in any Western country. Plus, the difference in income between men and women is skewed largely due to a small percentage of men in top positions who earn an insane amount over National the average. The vast majority of men don't have a considerably different salary than the average woman. But that is largely ignored by feminists, who only want to bunch all males together as one homogenous group and scream at the "patriarchy".
    As I said somewhere above...measuring of this are probable very quite tricky. Honestly if this is the biggest problem between genders, we are in safe waters. Unfortunately I don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I think there's a limit to what powers a mother should hold over the life of her unborn children. Most feminists seem to think otherwise. That is where the slogan "my body, my choice" comes into the picture. But the fact is, it is not just her body, but also the body of an innocent fetus that comes into the question. At the early stages of pregnancy, I think the mother should have the sole say in regards to the fetus, but after a certain point in development, one has to begin to see the fetus as an individual of its own, and men and the surrounding society should also have a say in whether or not they want to be complicit in such an act.
    Maybe there are some limits, but hers voice will always be heavier than man. So what do, if they don't agree? Plus I think we should avoid ''the set up hole'' called abortion in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I'm not surprised, and would answer the same way too.
    So you have good relationship with your mom? Great. Hopefully also to dad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Nah, I'm fine. By 'men let themselves be walked over by women' I mean men never letting themselves take their own side, or never operate from their own perspective. According to feminist, men are supposed to feel a sense of shame and guilt for being men, and are required to prove themselves as supporters of their ideology and make up for the perceived wrongs of past generations of men committed against women.
    What is mens perspective? Is that the same as the best of their family or does it mainly support their personal fantasies, enjoyments & desires in life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I recall when I was in elementary school, being taught about female enfranchisement and their supposed oppression by the hands of males. I told my (female) teacher that I felt shameful about being male due to how women had been treated in the past. Her answer was that "it was up to me and my generation of males to make up for that". Her answer wasn't that I had no reason to feel shame, or that the past was none of my fault, or that indeed men have done great deeds to protect the women of their Nations. No, it was instead that I should assume the guilt that was projected unto me and be an obedient servant to the wishes of women. That's the kind of BS that screws with the head of a lot of young men.
    I had never a woman teacher who was openly against men...

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