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Thread: Federal and State Religions?

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    Question Federal and State Religions?

    Do you believe that America has the capacity to provide certain religons room by allotting states, such as Utah's Mormon population? Do you believe that the current hegemony of various Christian sects into a Unitarian type form will end up disregarding this issue? There are religious headquarters in Washington, D.C. and I think this issue a valid one to discuss, despite the Church and State separation.

    I believe the topic of State or Federal Religion is pertinent, due to the overwhelming lack of understanding moral and social common sense in America.
    Last edited by Rodskarl Dubhgall; Friday, September 10th, 2004 at 12:43 AM.

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobite
    Do you believe that America has the capacity to provide certain religons room by allotting states, such as Utah's Mormon population? Do you believe that the current hegemony of various Christian sects into a Unitarian type form will end up disregarding this issue? There are religious headquarters in Washington, D.C. and I think this issue a valid one to discuss, despite the Church and State separation.

    I believe the topic of State or Federal Religion is pertinent, due to the overwhelming lack of understanding moral and social common sense in America.
    It is pertinent. However, without an adherence to an orthodox faith, it is a disaster waiting to happen. A 'Unitarian' experiment would be one of the most damaging things a state could do. An orthodox faith like Russian Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, or Lutheranism can hold a society together (ditto Islam, traditional Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.) Allotting states probably isn't workable either: religions will spread the most where one tries to limit them. Establishing a 'state religion' is probably only a good idea where at least the majority of a state already holds to a given religion. Having separate parts of a single political unity with differing religions is also a recipe for a 'crack up'.
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    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Well, perhaps a small allotment of land(DE, RI, HI) could allow for Unitarian type convergences, yet this is again one form of trying to go back to formula and allow personal divergences to add to the equation. It is picketing the religion, to be sure, yet it will allow for people to not have a religious mania like what happened around the English Civil Wars.

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobite
    Well, perhaps a small allotment of land(DE, RI, HI) could allow for Unitarian type convergences, yet this is again one form of trying to go back to formula and allow personal divergences to add to the equation. It is picketing the religion, to be sure, yet it will allow for people to not have a religious mania like what happened around the English Civil Wars.
    You'd probably get a religious war that way We'd fight for our monastery in Rhode Island. Actually, this might be a better topic for the Religion section. Personally, I like religious pluralism and the separation of Church and State. I firm believe in Christian Orthodoxy, and holding to a single Faith and dogma - but with Church governance locally. I wouldn't be Western Orthodox otherwise. If that was threatened, either the Byzantine ritual, the Roman ritual, or my own English ritual - I'd take up arms. Religion is probably one of the quickest ways to whip up a passionate response - religion and ethnicity/race both. And just as well: I don't expect everyone of my same race and nationality would want to be forced to share my religion (even though it is the right religion .)
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    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    You'd probably get a religious war that way We'd fight for our monastery in Rhode Island. Actually, this might be a better topic for the Religion section. Personally, I like religious pluralism and the separation of Church and State. I firm believe in Christian Orthodoxy, and holding to a single Faith and dogma - but with Church governance locally. I wouldn't be Western Orthodox otherwise. If that was threatened, either the Byzantine ritual, the Roman ritual, or my own English ritual - I'd take up arms. Religion is probably one of the quickest ways to whip up a passionate response - religion and ethnicity/race both. And just as well: I don't expect everyone of my same race and nationality would want to be forced to share my religion (even though it is the right religion .)
    I'm not about to take up arms about religion, but I don't mind speaking up for it. I hope those who splintered off of the Anglican faith will find some way to re-enter Communion with their mother faith.

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobite
    I hope those who splintered off of the Anglican faith will find some way to re-enter Communion with their mother faith.
    I agree, including the Anglican communion returning to the full Anglican faith ... and hopefully re-entering communion with the other Apostolic churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic). I feel the same way about the High Church 'Evangelical Catholic' Lutherans, particularly in Scandinavia, and 'high church' Methodists. Most of the modern scholars of each communion have said that the 'filioque' was an unnecessary and divisive introduction into the Creed. Even Rome has looked at returning to the conciliar model held by the Orthodox, which the Anglicans have always seen as the ideal. That sort of apostolic model of a full communion having a unity based upon the same Faith, but with different national churches with their own langauges, patriarchs, and rites is probably the best.

    Here are some interesting links:
    http://www.americananglican.org - for following the controversy that will probably lead to the ECUSA schism from Canterbury.

    http://http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/ - good resources for the real Anglican faith - christian, orthodox, catholic, apostolic
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    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    I agree, including the Anglican communion returning to the full Anglican faith ... and hopefully re-entering communion with the other Apostolic churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic). I feel the same way about the High Church 'Evangelical Catholic' Lutherans, particularly in Scandinavia, and 'high church' Methodists. Most of the modern scholars of each communion have said that the 'filioque' was an unnecessary and divisive introduction into the Creed. Even Rome has looked at returning to the conciliar model held by the Orthodox, which the Anglicans have always seen as the ideal. That sort of apostolic model of a full communion having a unity based upon the same Faith, but with different national churches with their own langauges, patriarchs, and rites is probably the best.

    Here are some interesting links:
    http://www.americananglican.org - for following the controversy that will probably lead to the ECUSA schism from Canterbury.

    http://http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/ - good resources for the real Anglican faith - christian, orthodox, catholic, apostolic
    So, I assume this means I must have been raised a high church Methodist. I think Methodists are a bridge between the laity and the Church of England's clergy by having the laity take their charge instead. There's not much else different, is there besides management?

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobite
    I think Methodists are a bridge between the laity and the Church of England's clergy by having the laity take their charge instead. There's not much else different, is there besides management?
    Well, Asbury's following notwithstanding, the Methodists were entirely Anglican in their origins. Though much is made of the Wesley's Moravian influence, it was only in a realization of evangelical method that they had an impact. Otherwise, Wesley was very much an Anglican, and I should say *catholic* traditionalist. His ideas of personal piety, the importance of prayer and fasting, and evangelical fervor were very much in the tradition of the old Catholic Saints of Western Europe. I don't think the Wesleys ever intended to split with the Church of England. Most likely their followers drifted away as outside ideas drifted into the group. However, the core of Wesleyan Methodism was still very much Anglican, catholic, orthodox, and apostolic - they kept an Episcopate even (which is why it used to be 'Methodist Episcopal Church - South', for instance.) The tragedy is that the Anglican clergy in many cases were completely secularized by that time and ignored the Methodist movement, rather than incorporating it. Same could be said about the Ritualists, Tractarians, and Anglo-Catholic movements. Modern American Methodism over the past few decades, however, has certainly degraded in many parts.
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    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Well, Asbury's following notwithstanding, the Methodists were entirely Anglican in their origins. Though much is made of the Wesley's Moravian influence, it was only in a realization of evangelical method that they had an impact. Otherwise, Wesley was very much an Anglican, and I should say *catholic* traditionalist. His ideas of personal piety, the importance of prayer and fasting, and evangelical fervor were very much in the tradition of the old Catholic Saints of Western Europe. I don't think the Wesleys ever intended to split with the Church of England. Most likely their followers drifted away as outside ideas drifted into the group. However, the core of Wesleyan Methodism was still very much Anglican, catholic, orthodox, and apostolic - they kept an Episcopate even (which is why it used to be 'Methodist Episcopal Church - South', for instance.) The tragedy is that the Anglican clergy in many cases were completely secularized by that time and ignored the Methodist movement, rather than incorporating it. Same could be said about the Ritualists, Tractarians, and Anglo-Catholic movements. Modern American Methodism over the past few decades, however, has certainly degraded in many parts.
    Yes, I see. There's one thing I don't like about New England. Often the decisions made by people are defended by "my religion is my ethnicity", which doesn't make sense. I appreciate the two-party nation of state and religion. I suppose I am very much a traditionalist. One reason for me to feel this way and hate the UMC, is because my father became belligerant with his Evangelicalism after marrying a blood-Moravian. (Wasn't it a pity that Richard II married Anne of Bohemia who bore him no child?) My mother suffered a huge drop in self esteem and so did I, because my mother had more traditional church experiences and I longed for that which made England great, besides the heathenistic feeling of saints.

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    Post Re: State Religions

    Personally, the model I like is that of Emperor and Patriarch/Pope, King and Archbishop. Two double edged sword of Church and State makes the wicked tremble, and ensure far more stability.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

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