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Thread: "Germanic" Is an Exonym

  1. #11
    Senior Member Wulfhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    I don't think this would be a main priority of mine at this point in our history, with possible extinction on the horizon.
    It's not just the name though, it's a movement for cultural renewal, based on the Oera Linda Book.

  2. #12
    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfhere View Post
    As a term for the ethno-linguistic family, it is derived from a Latin name applied to the people by outsiders. While the same is true of "Celtic", at least the latter doesn't also happen to be very similar to the modern English term for a specific country. One can say "Celt", but if one said "German" the confusion only multiplies.
    That's a problem specific to modern English, to be honest, after you ceased calling us Dutch. In all other Germanic languages, the terms for Germanic and German are different.

    An older word for the ethno-linguistic family, "Teutonic", is marginally better, but is still basically a term applied by outsiders, albeit, in this case, from a Latinised verson of a native word.
    As with Germanic, it's not clear whether Teutonic was originally a Germanic or a Celtic name. It's always hard to tell, when the source is an almost 2.000 year old text passed down to us via a different language and even copied/transcribed multiple times into different versions of Latin.

    Far better, in our opinion, is to choose a term that was once used by the people themselves as their name: Frisian. According to the Oera Linda Book, all the "Germanic" peoples were once Frisians (Fryas, in ancient Frisian).
    The Oera Linda Book is clearly a 19th century fake, even in a National Socialist Germany eager for any trace of early Germanic writing, this was eventually accepted. "Frisians" can't be the original name quite simply because the original Frisian region was never a runner for the Germanic Urheimat.
    The ancestors of the current Frisians were probably Saxons et al. that took the name from the region, after it was (largely) deserted by the original inhabitants due to massive flooding in the 5th century. Which would also explain why Frisian and English are linguistically so closely related, as well as the consistent close matches of ancient Anglo-Saxon(and to a somewhat lesser degree, modern English) DNA to modern Frisians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfhere View Post
    Frisians. Note that the modern Frisian term for Frisians is Friezen, whereas the ancient term, as used in the Oera Linda Book, is Fryas, the ancestors of all the "Germanic" peoples.
    That's not even consistent. Why not simply call them "Fryas" then, as not to mistake them with the modern Frisians. Otherwise you have the same, actually worse, problem than with Germanic and German.
    I don't think "Frisians" could be etymologically derived from "Fryas" in the first place, though. That's another argument against the authenticity of the Oera Linda Book.

    Ironically, the term by which we call ourselves, "Deutsch", might well be closer than anything else to what our common ancestors called themselves. Its proto-Germanic(and even proto-Indo-European) linguistic ancestor simply means "people, nation". It's attested already in the Wulfila Bible and has cognates with the same meaning in other Germanic languages still, as it once had in Old and Middle English. But that's if they had a common name encompassing all Germanic tribes to begin with.
    Obviously I'm not proposing to use something similar to Deutsch for all Germanics because that would mean a thousand more problems.

    I personally don't see the point in it but you could probably derive a more authentic name from Tuisto/Tuisco, if you want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Þoreiðar View Post
    The term is derived from the old Germanic word 'ger' ('geirr' in Old Norse), which means 'spear'. The ancient Germanics were known for using spears as their main weapon in battle, hence they were basically called "spear men".
    As straightforward as this explanation sounds, I think this theory has been laid to rest by now. Proto-Germanic for spear was apparently gaisaz, not Ger, which is already Old High German. "German" might derive from a Celtic word for neighbour(Old Irish "gair", for example) or for "screamers" (Old Irish "gairm").

    There was also an ancient tribe of Germanics who called themselves "German", located around the southern border between France and Germany, I believe.
    More likely in Flanders, since Tacitus said the tribe that was originally called Germani, was in his day named the Tungri. There are a few place names with that tribe's name in it in this area, like Tongeren.
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  4. #13
    Senior Member Wulfhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    That's a problem specific to modern English, to be honest, after you ceased calling us Dutch. In all other Germanic languages, the terms for Germanic and German are different.


    As with Germanic, it's not clear whether Teutonic was originally a Germanic or a Celtic name. It's always hard to tell, when the source is an almost 2.000 year old text passed down to us via a different language and even copied/transcribed multiple times into different versions of Latin.



    The Oera Linda Book is clearly a 19th century fake, even in a National Socialist Germany eager for any trace of early Germanic writing, this was eventually accepted. "Frisians" can't be the original name quite simply because the original Frisian region was never a runner for the Germanic Urheimat.
    The ancestors of the current Frisians were probably Saxons et al. that took the name from the region, after it was (largely) deserted by the original inhabitants due to massive flooding in the 5th century. Which would also explain why Frisian and English are linguistically so closely related, as well as the consistent close matches of ancient Anglo-Saxon(and to a somewhat lesser degree, modern English) DNA to modern Frisians.


    That's not even consistent. Why not simply call them "Fryas" then, as not to mistake them with the modern Frisians. Otherwise you have the same, actually worse, problem than with Germanic and German.
    I don't think "Frisians" could be etymologically derived from "Fryas" in the first place, though. That's another argument against the authenticity of the Oera Linda Book.

    Ironically, the term by which we call ourselves, "Deutsch", might well be closer than anything else to what our common ancestors called themselves. Its proto-Germanic(and even proto-Indo-European) linguistic ancestor simply means "people, nation". It's attested already in the Wulfila Bible and has cognates with the same meaning in other Germanic languages still, as it once had in Old and Middle English. But that's if they had a common name encompassing all Germanic tribes to begin with.
    Obviously I'm not proposing to use something similar to Deutsch for all Germanics because that would mean a thousand more problems.

    I personally don't see the point in it but you could probably derive a more authentic name from Tuisto/Tuisco, if you want to.


    As straightforward as this explanation sounds, I think this theory has been laid to rest by now. Proto-Germanic for spear was apparently gaisaz, not Ger, which is already Old High German. "German" might derive from a Celtic word for neighbour(Old Irish "gair", for example) or for "screamers" (Old Irish "gairm").


    More likely in Flanders, since Tacitus said the tribe that was originally called Germani, was in his day named the Tungri. There are a few place names with that tribe's name in it in this area, like Tongeren.
    The term Deutsch, Dutch etc. also exists in the Oera Linda Book, in the form Twisk. The Twiskar were people that inhabited the forests of what is now inland Germany (Twiskland), who were once themselves Frisians, but had been sundered in the convulsions of nature dated to 2194-2191 BC.

    The ancient Frisian term Fryas is the ancestor of modern Frisian Friezen. The English term "Frisian" may have a more convoluted etymological history. But our basic reasoning is that according to the Oera Linda Book, all the "Germanic" peoples were once Frisians, hence our use of the term. As to the question of whether the OLB is a hoax, this is a topic about which much has been written. Suffice to say that the scholarly establishment had, and still have, very strong motives for proclaiming it a forgery, such as a huge vested interest in the current status quo, a desire to deny the "Germanic" peoples their true history, and so on.

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    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfhere View Post
    The ancient Frisian term Fryas is the ancestor of modern Frisian Friezen. The English term "Frisian" may have a more convoluted etymological history.
    Frisian is pretty straightforwardly derived from the Old Frisian term of the same meaning or a common proto-Germanic root and a cognate to Friezen. You can no more derive Friezen from Fryas than you can derive Frisian from it.

    Suffice to say that the scholarly establishment had, and still have, very strong motives for proclaiming it a forgery, such as a huge vested interest in the current status quo, a desire to deny the "Germanic" peoples their true history, and so on.
    The Amt Rosenberg and some of the most profilic philologists and historians of the Third Reich like Hübner, Jacob-Friesen and Neckel are hardly the modern "scholarly establishment".
    And as if the actual history of the Germanic peoples wasn't impressive enough without making something up about some kind of 2100 BC Atlantis. The matriarchy described in the Oera Lind isn't even in line with anything we know about the culture ancient Germanics and Indo-Europeans in general, which were always strongly patriarchal.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
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    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


  6. #15
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Wouldnt it make more sense to connect Fryas to either "Freyja" or simply "free men/people"?

    "Mark" is an old word for (a marked and/or certain type of) "land" (Ukkermark f.e.), which exists in German as well as it does in Norwegian (Ostmark), and probably all Germanic languages. The people called "Markomannen" by Tacitus thus were simply people of the (their piece of) land. "Frank" basically works the same way, it simply means "unbound"/"free".

    The Anglosphere confusion should not dictate a change of terms that have been well established. It would be a matter of proper education to teach the difference between "German" and "Germanic".
    Plus you won't convince a Bavarian or Suebian or Thuringian to subscripe to Fryas based on a book that may or may not recompile stuff from much older sources, but as a whole clearly is a product of a romantisized view on "our" history, born from an admirable desire to put something against the Romanticism trying to connect Germania to Roman civilisation when we for the most parts of our lands never were part of the Roman empire. So the intention was a good one, but too much of it cannot be verified with any other source.
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    Senior Member Wulfhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Frisian is pretty straightforwardly derived from the Old Frisian term of the same meaning or a common proto-Germanic root and a cognate to Friezen. You can no more derive Friezen from Fryas than you can derive Frisian from it.


    The Amt Rosenberg and some of the most profilic philologists and historians of the Third Reich like Hübner, Jacob-Friesen and Neckel are hardly the modern "scholarly establishment".
    And as if the actual history of the Germanic peoples wasn't impressive enough without making something up about some kind of 2100 BC Atlantis. The matriarchy described in the Oera Lind isn't even in line with anything we know about the culture ancient Germanics and Indo-Europeans in general, which were always strongly patriarchal.
    There were, however, scholars in Nazi Germany who did accept the books authenticy, such as Herman Wirth and Karl Maria Wiligut, of the Ahnenerbe, specifically set up to explore Wirth's ideas. Himmler, their patron, also held the book in high regard, using its name for the creator-deity, Wr-alda, in a number of speeches. With the help of Wirth and Wiligut, he even started remodelling Wewelsburg Castle as a Frisian burch (citadel), in addition to basing the design of SS Julleuchter on a motif from the book.

    The book's mention of a conflagration of nature in 2194 BC fits in perfectly with what geologists now accept as a massive climatic shift at that time.

    https://www.firstpost.com/tech/scien...e-4768371.html

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    Senior Member Wulfhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Wouldnt it make more sense to connect Fryas to either "Freyja" or simply "free men/people"?

    "Mark" is an old word for (a marked and/or certain type of) "land" (Ukkermark f.e.), which exists in German as well as it does in Norwegian (Ostmark), and probably all Germanic languages. The people called "Markomannen" by Tacitus thus were simply people of the (their piece of) land. "Frank" basically works the same way, it simply means "unbound"/"free".

    The Anglosphere confusion should not dictate a change of terms that have been well established. It would be a matter of proper education to teach the difference between "German" and "Germanic".
    Plus you won't convince a Bavarian or Suebian or Thuringian to subscripe to Fryas based on a book that may or may not recompile stuff from much older sources, but as a whole clearly is a product of a romantisized view on "our" history, born from an admirable desire to put something against the Romanticism trying to connect Germania to Roman civilisation when we for the most parts of our lands never were part of the Roman empire. So the intention was a good one, but too much of it cannot be verified with any other source.
    Frya (as her name is spelt in the Oera Linda Book) is the ancestral and eponymous Frisian goddess, and the word is indeed used as a synonym for free, throughout the OLB.

    Addressing the confusion of "German" and "Germanic" in English is not our primary motive. Rather, our primary motive is to adopt a term that was actually used by our ancestors, and to use this to bring about renewal.

    Mark (a territory) and Frank (the tribe) are both found in the OLB.

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