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Thread: Operation Valkyrie (20 July Plot)

  1. #21
    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    German AfD leaders condemn member for calling Hitler attacker a traitor

    Leaders of the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) condemned a party member on Thursday for branding a German officer who tried to kill Adolf Hitler a traitor.

    Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg planted a briefcase bomb under a table at Hitler’s military headquarters in eastern Prussia on July 20, 1944. Protected by the heavy wooden table, Hitler suffered only minor injuries and Stauffenberg was executed that night with fellow conspirators.

    German newspaper Die Welt reported that Lars Steinke, a regional leader of the AfD’s youth wing, had said in a Facebook post that “Stauffenberg was a traitor”.

    Die Welt said it had a screenshot of the statement. The post is not visible on Steinke’s public Facebook page and, asked to comment on the report, Steinke told Reuters: “It was a non-public statement so you won’t find anything here.”

    AfD co-leader Alexander Gauland described Steinke’s comments as groundless idiocy. “Stauffenberg is a hero of German history. Steinke has disqualified himself from the AfD. He should be excluded,” said Gauland.

    Joerg Meuthen, the party’s other leader, said: “Mr Steinke’s comments are completely unacceptable, reveal an absurd understanding of history and have absolutely no place whatsoever in the AfD.”

    Meuthen added that the AfD’s federal board would deal with the matter at the beginning of next week.

    The anti-immigrant AfD became the third largest party in the national parliament after elections in September. It won around 13 percent of votes, benefiting from concerns about the arrival of more than a million migrants since mid-2014.

    At the time of the assassination attempt, Nazi Germany was fighting a losing battle in World War Two with Soviet forces and the Western allies.

    Die Welt cited Steinke as saying anyone who wanted to “wipe out” their country’s leadership at a time of rearguard action and was prepared to risk the collapse of battle fronts and so the unhindered advance of the enemy was “an enemy of the German soldier and civilian Germans and so an enemy of the German people and therefore also my enemy”.

    Other AfD members have also provoked outrage with their comments about the Nazi past. Last year Gauland said Germans should be proud of what their soldiers achieved during both world wars.

    In January 2017 regional AfD leader Bjoern Hoecke described the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin as a “monument of shame” and demanded a “180 degree turnaround” in the way Germany seeks to atone for Nazi crimes. The party decided this year not to expel him over the comments.


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  3. #22
    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    It's the 75th anniversary of Operation Valkyrie in a couple of days from now.

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    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    Senior Member Dani's Avatar
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    I don't buy the 'they were traitors' narrative. Tbh, if I were alive back then I hope I'd have the bravery to support them. Here's why:

    1. By 1944 it was obvious that Germany would lose but Hitler refused to negotiate or step down. A commanding officer has an obligation to protect those underneath him, not throw them into hopeless battles and blame them for the war's failure.

    2. The British government had been far more willing to negotiate with the Germans than the Americans were. During the Casablanca Conference the Americans demanded a policy of unconditional surrender which surprised the British government:

    Drew Middleton, who was in Casablanca at the conference, later revealed in his book, Retreat From Victory, that Churchill had been "startled by the [public] announcement [of unconditional surrender]. I tried to hide my surprise. But I was his [Roosevelt's] ardent lieutenant


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_Conference#Casablanca_Declara tion_of_"unconditional_surrender"
    Because Britain was willing to negotiate with a post-Hitler government and since Britain was the dominant military power in Western Europe up until 1947-ish, it's likely that the bomb plotters scheme would have worked.

    Side note:

    The people who promote Hitler's personality cult the most aggressively are normally fakes. David Getty, Wolfgang Hawke, Frank Cohen (and a dozen other Jews who masqueraded as Nazis) all obsessively defended Hitler. There's a reason for this.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Tbh, if I were alive back then I hope I'd have the bravery to support them.
    I would exercise caution in making statements like these. I am reminded of Matt. 23:30. The democratic equality complex was all-pervasive then as it is now. It is no boast to be a part of a group. The highest ideal for all great men has been the freedom of the individual. Also, the teaching of collective Jewish guilt for Jesus' death must be neutralized, it presents an obstacle to the triumph of refined anti-Semitism.

    Why does no one ever speak ill of the Jewish Essenes? What do Pharisees (intellectual types) have to do with this affair? Revolution has never been effected by writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Side note:

    The people who promote Hitler's personality cult the most aggressively are normally fakes. David Getty, Wolfgang Hawke, Frank Cohen (and a dozen other Jews who masqueraded as Nazis) all obsessively defended Hitler. There's a reason for this.
    Those are people on the fringes, and predominantly American.

    I have championed Hitlerism, divested from the party/movement and from the "esoteric" outsider interpretations (i.e. Savitri, Serrano, Myatt, Lanz, List, Jung) one finds being promoted everywhere. Am I a charlatan too?

    Actually, Hitler has a strange vitalizing effect on friends and foes. These Jews are opportunists no doubt, but they are also stimulated by his personality, as in those days when he was alive.

  9. #26
    Sound methods Chlodovech's Avatar
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    @Dani: Where do you remember reading/hearing of the British Empire being willing to negotiate and offer better terms? Big if true!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dani
    Because Britain was willing to negotiate with a post-Hitler government and since Britain was the dominant military power in Western Europe up until 1947-ish, it's likely that the bomb plotters scheme would have worked.
    Assuming you're correct, it still wouldn't have mattered for Operation Valkyrie as it historically went down in 1944, given the U.K. didn't hold the initiative nor did it have the weight to influence such decisions after the winter of 1941-1942, which saw America's entry into the war and the U.S.S.R. surviving Operation Barbarossa. Even if the U.K. only reluctantly supported the allied statements made in Casablanca, it simply wasn't powerful enough to dictate events.

    You could say that the intention to save the Reich and the German people was noble, as the German fronts were collapsing after D-Day, if only there had been a possibility of reasonable peace. But by July 1944 it was clear the allies would not offer better terms than they did in May '45, it had been that way at the very least since the conference in Casablanca - a momentous decision was taken there, the most dramatic conclusion of allied diplomacy during the war and one with far-reaching consequences, which ensured that the war would rage until the very last second and the whole face of the 20th century would become to one we're familiar with. In such circumstances it is hard to maintain that the war was just against the national-socialist government rather than Germany as a whole. The plotters contacted Eisenhower through a German businessman in Spain and Eisenhower stuck to his guns on the unconditional surrender thingy, even in the direct leadup to Operation Valkyrie. And by that time the British own position regarding unconditional surrender was certainly cemented or at least irrelevant, as Britain had become a junior partner in the allies (the army sent to France was the UK's last army!).

    Chamberlain's government may have had reasonable demands in return for peace (it only asked for a withdrawal from Poland in autumn 1939), but with Churchill, whom rejected decent German peace proposals (including a withdrawal from all German military forces in Western Europe), peace with honor was impossible from the get go. Churchill stood in the way of peace more than anyone else at a time when it was still possible.

    The plotters could've saved more than a million German lives if they had succeeded and surrendered, but that would've been it. And this is all assuming that what you read or heard is true, because it seems to me that the Brits were probably the least likely to arrive at a negotiated settlement, less so than other allied powers.
    “Remember that all worlds draw to an end and that noble death is a treasure which no-one is too poor to buy.” - C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle

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  11. #27
    Senior Member Astragoth's Avatar
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    Because Britain was willing to negotiate with a post-Hitler government and since Britain was the dominant military power in Western Europe up until 1947-ish, it's likely that the bomb plotters scheme would have worked.
    Britain had already arrested a sitting ambassador in a time of war. When Hess made his flight he was acting as an ambassador
    and trying to negotiate peace. Instead they arrested him and put him in jail for the rest of his life. A war crime.
    Anyone that trusted the British after that should be shot for their sheer stupidity. There was no reason whatsoever to trust the
    British empire in any way whatsoever.

  12. #28
    Senior Member Dani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    I would exercise caution in making statements like these. I am reminded of Matt. 23:30. The democratic equality complex was all-pervasive then as it is now. It is no boast to be a part of a group. The highest ideal for all great men has been the freedom of the individual.
    That sounds counter-productive to me. Nationalism is based off of cooperation and a feeling of unity, not hyper-individualism. Hyper-individualism is literally toxic to winning political power.

    Those are people on the fringes, and predominantly American.

    I have championed Hitlerism, divested from the party/movement and from the "esoteric" outsider interpretations (i.e. Savitri, Serrano, Myatt, Lanz, List, Jung) one finds being promoted everywhere. Am I a charlatan too?
    You very well could be or perhaps you genuinely believe what you are writing. Either way, I am not going to take back anything I said. Hitlerism is toxic and it has no place in the Anglosphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    @Dani: Where do you remember reading/hearing of the British Empire being willing to negotiate and offer better terms? Big if true!
    Look up Churchill's proposed map of a post-war Germany offered at the Yalta Conference. It was far more generous than the American & Soviet offers.




    Quote Originally Posted by Astragoth View Post
    Britain had already arrested a sitting ambassador in a time of war. When Hess made his flight he was acting as an ambassador
    and trying to negotiate peace. Instead they arrested him and put him in jail for the rest of his life. A war crime.
    Anyone that trusted the British after that should be shot for their sheer stupidity. There was no reason whatsoever to trust the
    British empire in any way whatsoever.
    Let's look at it from the opposite perspective:

    1. Hitler violated the Munich Agreement by occupying the Slavic regions of Czechoslovakia (and forming the 'Reich Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia').

    2. Hitler broke his word again in Lithuania. He had said at Munich that he had no further territorial demands, but a few months later gave an ultimatum to the Lithuanians to hand over a piece of land that was majority non-German.

    3. The Nazi-Soviet Pact handed over massive areas of Europe that were filled with Romanians, Vlachs, Slavs, and Balts to the Red Army.

    Why trust a man who constantly breaks his own treaties and promises?

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  14. #29
    Senior Member Astragoth's Avatar
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    The British started the war and we've sat through almost a century of lying BS propaganda about the real victims in the war
    the Germans. I've heard the (((opposite perspective))) entirely too much over the years.

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    Sound methods Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani
    Look up Churchill's proposed map of a post-war Germany offered at the Yalta Conference. It was far more generous than the American & Soviet offers.
    Fascinating. Churchill pushed for unconditional surrender himself in Casablanca (and he did since 1940), but it could be argued that his plan for the partioning of Germany would've been a better deal for the German people indeed, the loss of territory seems minimal, with the exception of the Sudetenland - at least most Germans would still be living on German soil under a German government (of sorts) and Hungary would become part of the South German state. It's very much preferable to what happened, to be sure. On the other hand I doubt that the plotters would've settled for the carving up of Germany (those are still harsh terms from the German perspective, and the plotters lived in the world of 1944, not 1945, they had not experienced the alternative yet) after surrendering unconditionally and the war would've continued well into 1945 as it historically did. And I also think it's unlikely these three states would ever reunite or be allowed to reunite ever again, like the DDR and the BRD did after the fall of communism. If that were to happen Germany would be much stronger than it was back in 1939.
    “Remember that all worlds draw to an end and that noble death is a treasure which no-one is too poor to buy.” - C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle

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