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Thread: West vs East German & Austrian Identities

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    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    West vs East German & Austrian Identities

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_duchy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tes_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territ...ion_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany

    The only free state before WWII with Germanic stem duchy roots was Saxony, of Plattdeutsche volk. Westphalia, Hanover and Württemberg were areas and localities, not really ethnic, although Westphalia was a part of Saxony to begin with and Hanover was heir to Saxony, whereas Württemberg was heir to Swabia. After WWII, the only other states with any semblance of tribal origin, are Hesse and Thuringia, but they haven't anything else distinct about them. Frisians don't have their own state, even though they are the most distinct volk. Franken and Lothringen are culturally influential, but ethnically indistinct.

    It has occurred to me, by reading about the original German unification, that Germany's largest state of Prussia, was a Baltic country, not a Germanic one. This realization actually had me in a state of shock and sobriety over the past 24 hours, because so much has been made of der Reich and it is now sensible to view Prussia and East Germany as a house of cards unfit for Germanic destiny. It would be like Lithuania taking center stage in Poland, Estonia in Denmark or Finland in Sweden, but none of those countries made this mistake of investing so much into non-essential identity, as if it were integral to them.

    At the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, which was based in Bavaria, Austria and Bohemia--all shared a common Celtic, not Germanic origin. This actually aligns Hochdeutsche along the same lines as the English-speaking populations of Cornwall, Wales, Man, Scotland and Ireland. Therefore, if one compared West German Saxony with England and Austria with the Celts, these are perfect parallels. In fact, this realization I had in a process beginning yesterday, puts all these Boii descendants in the spotlight and on quite the literal high road, whereas Baltic Prussia was a complete disturbance of Gerrmanic society.

    The Confederation of the Rhine (West Germany) was the region from which true German identity ought to have been sourced--neither Austria nor Prussia (East Germany). Whining about the vivisection of Germany and nation-rebuilding by the Allies comes from partisans of non-Germanic interests in Germany anyway, who could never fully dominate over the other, at the expense of actual Germans. If Germany can be firmly based on Saxons, the Netherlands on Frisians, Belgium on Franks, France on Gauls, Austria's Celtic heritage sets it apart, just as Prussia more properly belongs to the Baltic countries elsewhere.

    If you're stunned by my reversal of orientation, vis a vis Austro-Prussian rivalry, realize that I have no known Prussian/East German heritage, but am aware of Saxon/West German and Bavarian/Austrian ancestors, so if these two were to receive their just recognition for a truly relevant heritage, it would approximate the so-called "Anglo-Celtic" duality of the UK. If Kaliningrad were united with Lithuania and Latvia into a single country called "Baltica", that would probably satisfy everybody except the Poles and Russians, entitled to divide and conquer the Balts for their versions of Slavic hegemony. Bohemia matters more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_duchy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tes_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territ...ion_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany

    The only free state before WWII with Germanic stem duchy roots was Saxony, of Plattdeutsche volk. Westphalia, Hanover and Württemberg were areas and localities, not really ethnic, although Westphalia was a part of Saxony to begin with and Hanover was heir to Saxony, whereas Württemberg was heir to Swabia. After WWII, the only other states with any semblance of tribal origin, are Hesse and Thuringia, but they haven't anything else distinct about them. Frisians don't have their own state, even though they are the most distinct volk. Franken and Lothringen are culturally influential, but ethnically indistinct.

    It has occurred to me, by reading about the original German unification, that Germany's largest state of Prussia, was a Baltic country, not a Germanic one. This realization actually had me in a state of shock and sobriety over the past 24 hours, because so much has been made of der Reich and it is now sensible to view Prussia and East Germany as a house of cards unfit for Germanic destiny. It would be like Lithuania taking center stage in Poland, Estonia in Denmark or Finland in Sweden, but none of those countries made this mistake of investing so much into non-essential identity, as if it were integral to them.

    At the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, which was based in Bavaria, Austria and Bohemia--all shared a common Celtic, not Germanic origin. This actually aligns Hochdeutsche along the same lines as the English-speaking populations of Cornwall, Wales, Man, Scotland and Ireland. Therefore, if one compared West German Saxony with England and Austria with the Celts, these are perfect parallels. In fact, this realization I had in a process beginning yesterday, puts all these Boii descendants in the spotlight and on quite the literal high road, whereas Baltic Prussia was a complete disturbance of Gerrmanic society.

    The Confederation of the Rhine (West Germany) was the region from which true German identity ought to have been sourced--neither Austria nor Prussia (East Germany). Whining about the vivisection of Germany and nation-rebuilding by the Allies comes from partisans of non-Germanic interests in Germany anyway, who could never fully dominate over the other, at the expense of actual Germans. If Germany can be firmly based on Saxons, the Netherlands on Frisians, Belgium on Franks, France on Gauls, Austria's Celtic heritage sets it apart, just as Prussia more properly belongs to the Baltic countries elsewhere.

    If you're stunned by my reversal of orientation, vis a vis Austro-Prussian rivalry, realize that I have no known Prussian/East German heritage, but am aware of Saxon/West German and Bavarian/Austrian ancestors, so if these two were to receive their just recognition for a truly relevant heritage, it would approximate the so-called "Anglo-Celtic" duality of the UK. If Kaliningrad were united with Lithuania and Latvia into a single country called "Baltica", that would probably satisfy everybody except the Poles and Russians, entitled to divide and conquer the Balts for their versions of Slavic hegemony. Bohemia matters more.
    So are you saying that all ''ethnic'' germans are not automatically Germanics ... they can be baltics or even slavics? Is that one of the reason why Germans phenotypes can differ quite a lot? What are the main phenotypes of Germans? Sub-Nordids, Norics and Alpines?
    How about Dinarids, Borrebies, Faelids, Baltids? Are there some areas of country there those (above) are more typical than rest of the country?





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    https://forums.skadi.net/threads/132...man-Identities

    Original tribes of Germany consisted of Jutes and Angles in the Northeast, Saxons and Frisians in the Northwest, Franks and Swabians in the Southwest, Thuringians and Lombards in the Southeast.

    Bavarians and Prussians are not rooted in Germanic heritage, but were assimilated Celts and Balts. Unfortunately, these are the two stereotypes most people associate with German national identity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    https://forums.skadi.net/threads/132...man-Identities

    Original tribes of Germany consisted of Jutes and Angles in the Northeast, Saxons and Frisians in the Northwest, Franks and Swabians in the Southwest, Thuringians and Lombards in the Southeast.

    Bavarians and Prussians are not rooted in Germanic heritage, but were assimilated Celts and Balts. Unfortunately, these are the two stereotypes most people associate with German national identity.
    Prussians lived north (Kalingrad/Köningsberg) etc. right? Closely to Lithuania and Latvia?

    Bavaria? You mean Bayern, right? Southeast corner of the country? Munchen etc.? I wonder is that Joachim Löw's roots from there....

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    That's funny, because there's no essential metaethnic difference between a Scotsman and a Bavarian. Oktoberfest is likely related to Samhain, or Halloween.

    Prussia is right back where it started, as a Baltic province of a Slavic country, i.e. Kaliningrad, Russia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    ....
    Bavarians and Prussians are not rooted in Germanic heritage, but were assimilated Celts and Balts. Unfortunately, these are the two stereotypes most people associate with German national identity.
    I'd be a bit more careful with that.
    - While there were Celts in what is now called Bavaria, the Bajuwarians were in fact a Germanic people.
    - Prussia got its name from a Baltid population group (Pruzzen) that resided in the area that is now Eastern Prussia. There were however also Goth and Burgundians residing in that area.

    I have no idea what the composition in the respective cases were. But "Germania was essentially the area North of the Danube and between Rhine and Dnieper in Roman times. The Germanic people may have displaced or assimilated Celts in a South-Western direction, but Baltic and Slavic people were only coming in after the Great people's migration with the fall of the Roman empire. The later didn't displace Germanic people completely, since those leaving were just a minority. But they may essentially have assimilated Germanic farmers in those areas over time. As for Prussia and East Germany in general. Those areas had net migration from Western parts of Germany in the medieval times as well. The form of National States like France, Germany, Poland is a development since the early modern era, after which the borders mostly coincided with language, as well as the Netherlands, Switzerland, Bohemia (which was an part of the Austro-Hungarian empire) becoming independent states.

    Concerning Germans and Austrians I think they are quite confused about their identity, thanks to Reeducation and World War Two. Although I think there was less brain-washing being done in Austria, but it remains a loaded subject for them as well, most of them seem to be dedicated to their regional identity.

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    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    Bavaria broke off from Bohemia and then expanded to the point where Ostmark became Austria. I'm not sure how Bohemia became Slavic, but probably in the same way that Bavaria and Prussia became Germanized. I don't know why the Teutonic Knights adopted the Baltic identity, going native.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    I don't know why the Teutonic Knights adopted the Baltic identity, going native.

    Did you then, adopt a native american identity?
    I mean if Prussians were Balts and Bavarians Celts, then you must be a Cherokee or something right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mööv View Post
    Did you then, adopt a native american identity?
    I mean if Prussians were Balts and Bavarians Celts, then you must be a Cherokee or something right?
    The Americans did:
    Apache Helicopters,
    Kiowa Helicopters,
    Tomahawk Cruise Missiles,
    Red Skins Football Clubs.....

    On stormfront a female Baltic historian
    claimed that the knights genocided the Prussians then,
    and who knows who these knights took as wives ?

    And there had been pestilence once in the 18th century,
    and is said, Austrian settlers were invited to come to East Prussia.

    East Prussians might be even overwhelmingly of
    Austrian heritage until 1914/1933 .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mööv View Post
    Did you then, adopt a native american identity?
    I mean if Prussians were Balts and Bavarians Celts, then you must be a Cherokee or something right?
    If anyone has done so, they live in Oklahoma or elsewhere on the reservation. As for the names America and Columbia, everyone knows that they honor early explorers and nothing more. None of the 13 States in 1776 was named after an Indian tribe. Funny thing, the German idea of Red Indians as Aryan as the Brown Indians, that the Anglo-Saxon kin to Germany must be resisted, unlike the Germans straight from Germany.

    Most who kept the German identity were Papist Austro-Bavarians, who Bismarck himself would condemn. Bismarck wouldn't use dishonest rhetoric about Jews and Negroes like Hitler did. Anybody could have pointed out the differences of British Isles Celtic influences, say, from the European Continental Celtic influences referred to in this thread, and/or the differences of Low and High German tribes in conjunction with them.

    Why didn't the Germans who moved to Bavaria and Prussia keep their tribal identity? Can they trace common lineage to a prior homeland, in the same way that Americans can trace the founders of our nation? Is there a collective acknowledgement about their beginnings? There are speculations like the Marcomanni, but it's known that Bavaria was once part of Bohemia.
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