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Thread: West vs East German & Austrian Identities

  1. #11
    Senior Member Mööv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    As for the names America and Columbia, everyone knows that they honor early explorers and nothing more.

    Yes they do - papist explorers.
    So that means USA is a med country not an über-nordo-protestant-whatever. Are you absolutely sure your ancestors didn't hump injuns? I mean, due to all your identity crisis it is a possibility. And that flag... more red, less white... you gotta have some injun blood. Dead giveaway!
    By the pricking of my thumbs,
    Something wicked this way comes.
    Open, locks,
    Whoever knocks.

  2. #12
    Blut ist ein ganz besonderer Saft. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    The only free state before WWII with Germanic stem duchy roots was Saxony, of Plattdeutsche volk.
    I don't know how often I have to tell you but the state of Saxony or Kingdom of Saxony back then, has ethnically zero to do with the historic Lower Saxons and they don't speak plattdeutsch either.

    At the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, which was based in Bavaria, Austria and Bohemia--all shared a common Celtic, not Germanic origin. This actually aligns Hochdeutsche along the same lines as the English-speaking populations of Cornwall, Wales, Man, Scotland and Ireland.
    Have you ever looked at a historic map? When was the HRE based only in Bavaria, Austria and Bohemia? And no, the situation of southern German(ics) isn't comparable to some recently linguistically anglicised British Celts. One of them was Germanised in a folk migration 1.500 years ago, the other by cultural dominance in the full light of history about 200 years ago. If anything, southern Germany is comparable to England in this respect and the actual percentage of Germanic settles was probably even higher, than the consensual 30-50% in England(although the substrate was probably genetically more northern there, than in southern Germany).

    The Confederation of the Rhine (West Germany) was the region from which true German identity ought to have been sourced--neither Austria nor Prussia (East Germany). Whining about the vivisection of Germany and nation-rebuilding by the Allies comes from partisans of non-Germanic interests in Germany anyway, who could never fully dominate over the other, at the expense of actual Germans.
    Yes, wanting a Germany that unites all Germans, by Germans and for Germans is clearly having "non-Germanic" interests in mind, you nitwit. Are you currently trying very hard to be the most stereotypical stereotype of an American? If you ever wonder why some Germans loathe America(ns), just look in the mirror. It's precisely this attitude, paired with the absence of any knowledge.
    And to clarify, that's directed solely at you, not at other Americans on here, who are usually very likable people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    Bavarians and Prussians are not rooted in Germanic heritage, but were assimilated Celts and Balts.
    Yeah, erm, no. At least in the case of the Bavarians we have direct genetic evidence, that they're very unlike the previous inhabitants and that admixture probably wasn't higher than 15-25%(although the size of the sample is quite low, which is normal for ancient DNA studies):

    Population genomic analysis of elongated skulls reveals extensive female-biased immigration in Early Medieval Bavaria

    "Lack of Mediterranean and Gallo-Roman Influence on Medieval Bavarian Genetic Structure.

    Excluding individuals with ACD and two women with Greek/Anatolian ancestry, our samples from Early Medieval Bavaria can be genetically characterized as typically northern/central European. It is perhaps surprising that no local individual was found to share recent common genetic ancestry with a Roman soldier living in the same area ∼200 y earlier. The analysis of his genome identifies him to be of southwest European origin. Thus, our results, though only based on one sample, argue against significant admixture between any Roman populations from more southern parts of the former Roman Empire and our individuals buried in Bavaria around 500 AD."

    See also this PCA(numbered individuals are ancient, dots with letters are the averages of populations, "DE" is obviously the German cluster):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Neue Bitmap.bmp 
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    So southern Germans are inbetween the triangle of the more northern CH cluster, AT and BE. A few things are still to be remarked:

    - Evidently the populations weren't purged of obvious outliers/halfbreeds/recent immigrants. That's obvious, for example, from the fact, that the sole Slovakian (SK) is positioned between Italy, Greece and Cypern. That's entirely impossible. Since 99% of the immigrants in Germany aren't from the north, purging for outliers would shift the German average north.

    - The northernmost ancient individuals O1 and O2 are Anglo-Saxons who, on about every other PCA I've seen, cluster somewhere between Brits, Danes and Norwegians and not to the north of even the Norwegian cluster. So it's likely all ancient individuals would have to be moved southwards. Which would make southern Germans even more Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    I'm not sure how Bohemia became Slavic, but probably in the same way that Bavaria and Prussia became Germanized.
    You mean by a massive folk migration? Yes, indeed. That's why Czechs are genetically predominantly Slavic, just like Bavarians and Prussians are/were predominantly German and Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    None of the 13 States in 1776 was named after an Indian tribe.
    Massachusetts and Delaware are literally the names of Amerindian tribes. Even I knew that without looking it up. You don't even know your own history and want to lecture us about ours.

    Funny thing, the German idea of Red Indians as Aryan as the Brown Indians, that the Anglo-Saxon kin to Germany must be resisted, unlike the Germans straight from Germany.
    Congratulations, that made even less sense than your usual gibberish. I have literally no idea what that was supposed to mean.

    Why didn't the Germans who moved to Bavaria and Prussia keep their tribal identity? Can they trace common lineage to a prior homeland, in the same way that Americans can trace the founders of our nation? Is there a collective acknowledgement about their beginnings?
    How is this even a valid comparison to you, Bavaria was settled in the 5th century in illiterate times, whereas the settlement of Prussia was pan-German(ic) affair, as should be well known. How does this compare to some country settled in the 17th century?

    Bavaria broke off from Bohemia and then expanded to the point where Ostmark became Austria.
    [...]
    There are speculations like the Marcomanni, but it's known that Bavaria was once part of Bohemia.
    Aha? One possible explanation of the name Bajuvarii might be "those that come from the land where the Boii once dwelled" but it also might simply mean "those that inhabit the land where the Boii once dwelled". That is about the only connection to Bohemia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    I wonder is that Joachim Löw's roots from there....
    Löw is from the Black Forest, a remote region in southwestern Germany/Baden-Württemberg. His look is quite uncommon around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe Jens Lornsen View Post
    And there had been pestilence once in the 18th century,
    and is said, Austrian settlers were invited to come to East Prussia.

    East Prussians might be even overwhelmingly of
    Austrian heritage until 1914/1933 .
    There were Protestant Salzburger Exulanten but that's vastly exaggerated. There were probably about 15.000-20.000 of those compared to a settled East Prussian population of 300.000-400.000.
    "And in the shock of battle the men of the North seemed like a sea that cannot be moved. Firmly they stood, one close to another, forming as it were a bulwark of ice, and with great blows of their swords they hewed down the Arabs. Drawn up in a band around their chief, the people of the Austrasians carried all before them. Their tireless hands drove their swords down to the breasts of the foe." - The Mozarabic Chronicle of 754, about the Germanic victory at the Battle of Tours.

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  4. #13
    Senior Member Uwe Jens Lornsen's Avatar
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    I had to lookup wikipedia for German east settlement :
    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung

    No numbers provided it seems.

    East Prussia is said to have had 2.5 Million inhabitants by around year 1939 .

    If I take the number from the wikipedia, that each generation doubled the number
    of Austrian settlers:
    1730 15T
    1750 30T
    1770 60T
    1790 120T
    Napoleonic Wars
    1810 240T / 60T
    1830 480T / 120T
    1850 960T / 240T
    1870 2M / 480T
    1890 4M / 1M
    1910 8M / 2M
    First World War
    1930 16M / 2M

    The above list shows, that it is plausible, that a core of 15 thousand settlers were
    capable to reach an amount of 2'500 thousand sucessors
    after 200 years.
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

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  6. #14
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    It is kind of messed up that Columbus and Vespucci get all the press, whilst Cabot languishes in shadows among us and even Verrazzano has more interest shown his way. Maybe you can illuminate us all about the wondrous colonial achievements of any Continental West Germanic polity aside from Holland. Feel free to demonstrate them. As for the idea of being "in name only", that is a real issue for civic entities, occasioning people's sense of confusion as to American ethnic identity. If Bavaria and Prussia are not Celtic or Baltic, then neither is America not Germanic.




    You just argued that Saxony is "in name only" and therefore, Germany is less volkish than advertised. Thanks for advancing my argument further, although it can be pointed out that native interest in Saxon longevity is as current in the Bundesrepublik as ever before. There's always been a Saxony of some sort, just as there's always been an Armenia--whatever the borders assumed for lebensraum. If the people of Saxony are not Saxons, then the people of Armenia are not Armenians. You can't have it both ways.


    After Aachen, the HRE was based in Munich, Prague and Vienna. It's common sense why the HRE would flourish in the least Germanic, but most Celtic regions, no different than philo-Romanism in Gallic France--as illustrated by Aachen being the former capital. France and Austria are two sides of the same coin. How typical of you to compare Bavaria to England, as if to de-Germanize a Low German identity, whilst reserving "true Germanic" to the High German. You want to make it seem as if England is Germanic "in name only", with Bavarians Celtic "in name only", but that British Celts are more than "in name only", not Germanized in the same fashion. Nice reversal and double-speak. Of course, it's your natural bias and prejudice.


    Outsourcing government to Prussia instead of Austria, was NOT the cure to the problems that beset Germany, but just another regime by outsiders only out for themselves. Self-government is the only cure to foreign rule and if Austria, a Bavarian colony and representative of Teutonic Manifest Destiny on the Continent, could not be trusted to represent native Germanic interests fairly, that goes against your characterisation of them as more Germanic than the Stewart Scottish establishment, drinking the same Papist Kool Aid and madly against native Germanic cultural expression, without the "say-so" of foreigners in Italy, France and Spain or Portugal.
    You're doing yourself no favours here by making yourself ignorant of your own country.


    Why shouldn't Bavarians have the only known genetic profile to be representative of the region? I would be curious to compare it with Bohemians to find a common origin, isolated to some degree from outside populations. Where else did the Hallstatt and La Tene inheritance come from and where did it go, but be passed down from the Boii to the Bavarians? No wonder an establishment like the HRE could be rooted in such a region more firmly than elsewhere, when Austria came to represent the rump state. This is the de facto Mitteleuropa above any other attempts to pinpoint one.
    Of course, you like to stress multiple waves of unattested German migrations to Bavaria, but omit the two widely known instances thereof in Britain, between the Jutes, Angles and Saxons firstly, followed by the Danes to buttress the same regional input of genetics to the English population. Frisians, Norwegians, Geats and Swedes came as individuals, rather than tribal units, so their contributions are not easily filtered.


    I never said that Bavarians and Prussians weren't Germanic, just that they had branched off of the German population and became volks unto themselves, more at home among Celts and Balts, than fitting among "fellow" Germans. At least the English kept a Germanic name when going to live alongside the Celts, not to the point where "British" has been adopted in its place, as "Bavarian" has. You pointed out the distance in time, between say, Bavaria and America having living memory of the personages involved and tribal origins, but Bavaria is as if Offa's Dyke never existed and the English became Welsh, just speaking a Germanic tongue, as the Welsh do. In fact, there are recognisable differences. England didn't "go native" among the Britons and lose Germanic identity under Norman yoke either, as happened with the polyglot HRE, composed of Germany, Bohemia, Burgundy and Italy. On the contrary, England dug in their heels and forced the conquerors to adopt their culture, while turning the "Auld Enemy" of Scotland into "side-kicks", whereby the Lowlands were fused to England and Highlands were forced to acquiesce. God Save The King, indeed.


    Massachusetts is the name of the blue hills of the Bay, in the Algonquin language. The Indians had other names, like Narragansett (e.g. Narragansett Bay) and Pequot (i.e. the namesake of the Pequod ship of Moby Dick fame). Delaware is the title of the West family, who were Lords De La Warr. It is of French origin, owing to the Hundred Years' War. The Lenape were their actual name, but nobody cared to call them according to their real name. Your overconfidence is showing, as you admittedly didn't bother to check your claims before spouting them off. LOL


    Hitler and other prominent "Germans" glamourised Red Indian resistance to Anglo-Saxon Manifest Destiny and only praised the German immigrants, ranting about Jewish influences and Negroids. This is funny. It's not the first or last time some German found something "Aryan" about Asians and despised his fellow Germanic tribesmen, as in the time of Attila. So, if the shoe fits, Hun, wear it. Might as well restore Austria-Hungary while you're at it.


    You make convenient excuses for the Germans who moved into Bohemia and turned their half into Bavaria, to have lost their Germanic name, whereas the Anglo-Saxons never have lowered the bar for themselves in such a fashion--yet, you wish to compare the two as if they are peers on the same level and deny the racial loyalty of the Anglo-Saxons to their Low German roots in a strange land. Now, had you compared Bavarians to Lowlanders in Scotland, you would make sense, since they account themselves as Scots, but are not Celts and keep to Germanic heritage otherwise, just as the Bavarians use a Celtic name, despite Germanic roots. You and your double standards reek of snobbery. Janteloven is so hard for you to accept. You puff yourselves up and will be torn down for it.


    Maybe you are Bill Clinton and wish to define the word "is" by splitting hairs that cannot be, just because you would prefer not to admit the obvious. Would you really lose face to acknowledge the differences in Germany have real reasons? You're so wrapped up in your wish to promote unity, that you deny facts that get in the way of your agenda. Personally, my agenda is for Germany to have indisputable Germanic roots and culture accepted and promoted, without seeking approval from those who have gone astray and feel like it is up to them to filter it according to their non-Germanic agendas. You find distaste in my celebration of Germanicness in Germany without foreign qualification? You must be in league with foreign despots then, because I've done nothing but speak against them. You would not stand Germanics outside Germany speaking up for Germanics in Germany and against non-Germanic social predators who cheapen and exploit the good name Germany ought to have. You are your own worst enemy. How sad!
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    Ever heard of something called "ethnogenesis"? Most ethnicities have some sort of "foreign" substratum from other European countries. North Germanics are not excluded either. Iceland for example, also has a Celtic substratum. So does England for that matter. So if you want to pick apart which ethnicities are the most "pure" from this perspective, you'll find some skeletons in almost every closet. Germanics are not only identified by DNA, but also by culture, language, religion, etc.

    By the way, it's always funny to see how Americans talk about purity and mixtures, considering their own nation is a melting pot. A proverb about not throwing stones from a glass house comes to mind.

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  9. #16
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    Funny how you feel the same way. It's obvious that Europe is not inherently volkish and never was, despite the hypocritical rhetoric from Nazi propagandists and apologists. Pot. Kettle. Black. In any case, thanks for not reading the posts and just blathering most of the stuff out the way you did. Far from winning any argument against my statements, you've only augmented the whole point of this thread. It's hard to take goose-stepping seriously, when claims are non-existent in reality. Weird to get all up in arms and push a blame game and conspiracy theories.

    English folk in Britain are more Germanic than Prussian volk in Germany. The former retains a Germanic identity in a foreign land, whereas the latter is a foreign identity in a Germanic land. It's not the fault of Englishmen that Prussia is the majority culture and society of Germany, since living in Britain only meant not being around to partake in the identity crisis. Now, had England been the majority still in Germany, I'm sure Prussia would never have usurped the role of German leadership. English leadership in Britain caused a power vacuum in Germany, enabling or inviting Germany to be ruled by foreigners into the 20th century. There's no resident tribal identity with enough power to represent all Germans, just a bunch of little shadows of former glories. Jew or no Jew, it's always been a problem for Germany. The only way to blame England for it, is for having abandoned Germany for Britain. Germany's had since the fall of Rome to get their act together, blundering every time. Even 1066 could not vanquish the English. All you have argued is that Bavaria and Prussia aren't nation states, but civic identities, just because they're Celtic and Balto-Slavic, but where England is Germanic, you call it civic instead of folkishness, just because it's in Britain, which is Celtic. Well, slice off Wales and let them keep the British name, because Englishmen don't need it.
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    Moderator Resist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolgadeutscher View Post
    Ever heard of something called "ethnogenesis"? Most ethnicities have some sort of "foreign" substratum from other European countries. North Germanics are not excluded either. Iceland for example, also has a Celtic substratum. So does England for that matter. So if you want to pick apart which ethnicities are the most "pure" from this perspective, you'll find some skeletons in almost every closet. Germanics are not only identified by DNA, but also by culture, language, religion, etc.

    By the way, it's always funny to see how Americans talk about purity and mixtures, considering their own nation is a melting pot. A proverb about not throwing stones from a glass house comes to mind.
    I think that just about sums it up in short.

    I would also add that some of the Prussian virtues are also considered typical German(ic) qualities. For example, the contemporary German stereotypes of efficiency, austerity and discipline all come from Prussia. And how many of us associate traits like efficiency and discipline with being Germanic? Efficiency, I would say, is one of the quintessential Germanic traits, in fact. Or what about the Protestant work ethic?

    A list of other examples of Prussian virtues:

    • Courage (German: Mut)
    • Determination (German: Zielstrebigkeit)
    • Fortitude without self-pity (German: Tapferkeit ohne Wehleidigkeit): Lerne leiden ohne zu klagen ("Learn to suffer without complaining")
    • Frankness or Probity (German: Redlichkeit)
    • Godliness, coupled with religious tolerance (German: Gottesfurcht bei religiöser Toleranz): Jeder soll nach seiner Façon selig werden ("Let everyone find salvation according to his own beliefs")
    • Humility or Modesty (German: Bescheidenheit)
    • Incorruptibility (German: Unbestechlichkeit)
    • Industriousness or Diligence (German: Fleiß)
    • Loyalty (German: Treue)
    • Obedience (German: Gehorsam): Seid gehorsam, doch nicht ohne Freimut ("Be obedient, but not without frankness")
    • Punctuality (German: Pünktlichkeit)
    • Reliability (German: Zuverlässigkeit)
    • Restraint (German: Zurückhaltung)
    • Self-denial (German: Selbstverleugnung)
    • Self-effacement (German: Zurückhaltung): Mehr sein als scheinen! ("More substance than semblance!")
    • Sense of duty or Conscientiousness (German: Pflichtbewusstsein)
    • Sense of justice (German: Gerechtigkeitssinn): Jedem das Seine or Suum cuique ("May all get their due")
    • Sense of order (German: Ordnungssinn): ("Know your place")
    • Sincerity (German: Aufrichtigkeit)
    • Straightness or Straightforwardness (German: Geradlinigkeit)
    • Subordination (German: Unterordnung)
    • Toughness (German: Härte): Gegen sich mehr noch als gegen andere ("Be even harder on yourself than on others")


    On a separate note: while we have discussions here whether virtually any country is Germanic and to what degree, Skadi officially considers both Bavarians and Prussians to be Germanic, and has members and staff pertaining to both those backgrounds. You are, of course entitled to your own defintion of Germanic, however, as these two groups are protected by our mission statement, criticism will have to be civil, fair and benevolent.

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  12. #18
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    I'm just retorting to Anglophobia by poking holes in the rhetoric, which means showing the reality. It's like the form of martial arts, where you use your enemy's own attacks against him. In this case, "frenemy" is what I'd call Anglophobia. Lots of people ought to look in the bloody mirror before strutting around and trying to determine a pecking order in which they feel entitled to rule and judge so hypocritically. I'm not certain that English are as well valued and protected by the mission statement, because it's only used as a vehicle for Continentals. It's like some people want to use Skadi as a Germanophile, Anglophobe, but Anglophone forum, as if they could not be Germanics without tirades to prove it by demonizing the Allies, calling England and New England traitors, when they themselves could be called Huns and Krauts.

    Well, maybe Germany isn't what it was over 1,500 years ago and trying to hold it against us that we no longer recognized it as our homeland has nothing to do with us falling far from the tree, but it's more like we are Luke Skywalker and the Continentals are Darth Vader--we want to redeem our patrimony out of love for who gave us life. If your parents cheated on each other, wouldn't you criticize them harshly, for destroying your home? What if the other man and other woman were from a different ethnic group? Wouldn't you be upset and up in arms at them telling you to go along with it, that it's not for you to say, because you're just a child, then hurt your feelings by calling you a bastard instead? That's what is happening here. Happy Father's Day weekend.

    Comparatively speaking, English society is similar to the Netherlands, with the Normans being the Dutch and the Anglo-Saxons being the Frisians. The major difference, of course, is that Normans remain in the Channel Islands and imposed their rule over England from afar like absentee landlords, rather than cohabiting the same state, which is the case of Holland and Friesland. Of course, that's not the end of the story, because the other third of the English are Danish in origin and aloof from this, thereby making England a cross section of the best that Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark have to offer.

    England has typically been an apartheid state, compared with Continentals, who are integrationist Eurofascists. If the European Germanics were so volkish and preservationist, they wouldn't choose to amalgamate and come up with fake ass conspiracies about the English who have chosen to remain separate from all but Anglophone Celts. There's never been a situation where Balto-Slavic and Uralic countries like Prussia and Hungary have been fused to the corporate infrastructure of England, so whereas the comparison of Bavaria and Wales may work, to show little difference, the Continentals live in another world entirely.

    Now that I think about it, let's say India in relation to England is no different than Prussia in Germany, as both Prussia and India are Satem Indo-Europeans, whereas Hungary isn't. So, we can bypass the medieval experience of the Massacre of Verden and Battle of Hastings period of inequality beneath Mediterranean rulers and the resultant relationship with Italics. You want to call it even? Neither Germany nor England is more Germanic...how about that?
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    The "fact" that Southern Germans would be "less Germanic" or "more mixed" than their fellow countrymen is a simple myth propagated by enemies of German unity, nothing more. The reason not to fall into that trap is becuse in the grand scheme of things, the same arguments are used to justify the suicide of Europe. "We are all mixed" or "there was X DNA found in Y population" as a blanket statement to support mass immigration. Also, associating Southern German identity with Catholicism is not quite right. Southern Germany used to have a considerable Protestant population. Even nowadays, one can find Protestant churches along the Catholic ones, even in the smallest of towns.

    Btw, where exactly do you see "Anglophobia", on this forum or otherwise? I hope you don't confuse lack of support towards politically correct governments of other countries as a "phobia".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    the Continentals live in another world entirely.

    Yes, so then remove your nose from our collective ass and keep it away.
    Have a nice day.
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