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Thread: Racial characteristics of Turks [split from: Can anybody also classify me please!]

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    Post Racial characteristics of Turks [split from: Can anybody also classify me please!]

    You look Europid in those pictures. It is impossible to say anything beyond that, perhaps except that you seem to be quite pigmented. But again, the quality is too low to determine even that. You could take some anthropometric measurements or post higher quality pictures.

    Turkey is not a nationstate. It has never been. It is a composite of people from different (albeit from neighbouring regions) of people who have been at one point of history been forced to become assimilate into some general Turkish identity.

    Kurds are clearly Europid, and some are very tall and blondism (among Northern Iraqi, although it become less pronounced among the adults) is frequent in some regions. Kurds in Eastern Turkey seem to have more Armenid, but others look more or less Pontid, and maybe even somewhat East-Nordid.

    There is some Arabid in the south (where they could have shelter from the Mongol assaults) and Turanid (contact race from north of the Caspian Sea, and should be more Pontid-Dinarid in the western regions and Kumid in the east) in the plains of central Turkey.

    The Turks (originally from S Siberia) came only in the Middle Ages. The whole of western Turkestan was then inhabited by Pontids. From what I've read by stealing women and children they quickly took up Arabid, Pontid and yet more Armenid natives in the east. There is occasionally even Nordid Turks, and through Balkan Slavic people East-Baltid. Maybe there is also gracile Mediterranid in westernmost Turkey.


    Quote Originally Posted by Athelf
    ok here are the pictures... and a little info about me... i have a turkish and circassian background... some people say turks are non_white people.. yea there are some turks who got mixed with arabs and kurds... but im wondering.. am i also a non_white person???
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Wednesday, October 20th, 2004 at 12:57 AM.

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
    There is occasionally even Nordid Turks, and through Balkan Slavic people East-Baltid. Maybe there is also gracile Mediterranid in westernmost Turkey.
    I once met a blond and blue-eyed Turk when I was in New York City a couple of years ago. He was straight from Turkey but didn’t feel any kinship with other Turkish people and actually had a very low opinion of them. He claimed that he and others like him were descendents of the Janissaries (descendents of Christian slaves) and kept telling stories of how a blond and blue-eyed Janissary warrior elite was used by the Turks to wage their wars. While the Janissaries committed great deeds of valor in keeping with their heroic spirit the cowardly Turks would lurk in the background and wait until all signs of danger had past. He seemed to derive particular pleasure from telling these tales when other Turks were around as it would enable him to bask in a sense of superiority; but strangely enough none of the other Turks objected even though they didn’t seem to be close at all or even to know each other. However, this fellow chickened out when I asked him to join me and some friends to go skydiving. Maybe Janissaries are scared of heights.

    This Greek site views Turks as alien to Asia Minor and claims that they have actively been pursuing a policy of genocide against subservient populations from 1300 to the present. Obviously this would indicate that inhabitants of the region have become progressively more Turkish.
    http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/
    (it’s an interesting site, but it does have pop-ups)

    The raids by Genghis Khan's (1167-1227) Mongols forced another Turkish tribe, led by Suleyman-Shah, to abandon Turkistan and to head towards the west. This group tried to settle in Eastern Asia Minor, but the Armenians and Kurds ousted them. In an attempt to cross the Euphrates river, their leader was drowned and buried there, which ever since has been known as <<Turk-mezari>>, or the <<tomb of the Turk>> A title which is indicative of how alien the Turks were in these areas.

    The tribe then moved toward the Sultanate of Roum where it settled often assuming the role of border-guards. Suleyman's grandson, Osman, (1259-1326), took over the title of Sultan from the Seljuks and he gave his name to the Turkish people : The Ottomans.

    The leaders of the Osmanlis quickly realized that since they comprised a minority of conquerors it would be difficult for them to control the occupied lands, and simultaneously to pursue further conquests without taking certain <<special measures>>.

    Thus, they decided to adopt and apply harsh methods previously unknown to the whole world. Methods which were never repeated again by another nation on earth. The primary measures taken were as follows :
    1. They declared their state a warrior or <<Gazi>> state. In other words, a state that was bound to declare holy war (Jihad) against the non-believers. This way, they were able to bring together all kinds of adventurers, who were willing to fight either for ideological reasons, or for just the spoils of the war.
    2. They adopted the inhumane measure of forcibly recruiting young Christian children. In other words, they forcibly took male children of the enslaved Christian families (mainly Greeks. and later also Armenians Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs), and brought them up in special camps. They conditioned them to become fanatic Turks and relentless killers to their own people. These children would grow up to believe that their father was the Sultan and that if they were to die in battle they would go to heaven. Thus, because of this New Army, or Janissaries, (Yeni-ceri in turkish) the Turks continued to pursue their conquests.
    3. They slaughtered systematically millions of Asia Minor's inhabitants, in order to change the ethnic character of the land. It has been estimated that during the seven centuries of Turkish presence in Asia Minor several millions of Greeks, at least two-three million Armenians and hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Syrians, but also Serbs, and Bulgarians in Europe, were systematically massacred. In the 20th century alone, it has been estimated that approximately 1,5 million Armenians and more than 1 million Greeks were extrerminated.
    In this manner, the Turks managed to hold on to Asia Minor, a foreign land for them, where Greek civilisation had flourished for 2.000 years before the appearance of the Turks.

    The Turks just destroyed this civilisation and unfortunately did not even try to take advantage of its accomplishments.

    In two previous occassions the Greek people contributed in civilising their conquerors as was the case with the Romans and the Franks. One must possess a cultural identity to be able to absorb what is creative and good from other civilisations. Unfortunately, the conquering Turks lacked such an identity.

    The Turks also failed to administer their subject peoples within the Ottoman Empire. There were no <<laws>> in the civilised sense of the word. The Sultan's word was the law in the capital and arbitrary rule of local representatives was the law in the provinces. The property, honor, and life of the conquered was completely at the mercy of the occasional Turkish official.

    The only bond that kept the multiethnic empire together was the crude use of force-ultimately the butchery-of the rulers. Slaughter was the rule without concern for innocence or guilt.

    Under these conditions the Turkish administration was truly detestable to all the subject people who suffered and patiently waited for each opportunity to throw off the Ottoman yoke.

    The Turks failed to assimilate the various nationalities within their empire. They could not also administer them efficiently, not even control the economy because commerce and industry was left in the hands of the Greeks, Armenians and Jews, while the Turks kept busy with governing and simultaneously exploiting the profits while terrorizing the inhabitants.

    For the enslaved people to be finally liberated from their rulers there took place a series of revolutions, which led to the establishment of independent states. In 1908 the Young Turk revolution forced the Sultan to grant a constitution to the remnants of the Ottoman Empire.

    In spite of the apparent liberalism of the formally bourgeois revolution which was spearheaded by the military without the participation of the people, there continued to develop additional centrifugal tendencies as they did in the times of the Sultan's despotism. For those nations still within the Empire whose fellow nationals had established independent states, e. g. the Greeks- it was natural for them to seek union with their free compatriots. Those peoples still within the Empire that had not attained separate statehood, e.g. the Armenians, and the Kurds, focused all their energies towards the attainment of self-determination and the establishment of autonomous national homelands.

    The Young Turks sought to rid themselves of troublesome non Turkish ethnic groups so that they could build a homogeneous Turkish state and so they could avoid iurther mutilation of Turkish controlled territorv in areas where non-Turks were in the majority, such as Eastern Thrace,

    Western Asia Minor and Pontos, where the Greeks were in the majority, Eastern Asia Minor where the Armenians were in the majority and, Southeastern Asia Minor where the Kurds were in the majority.

    Thus, the supposedly liberal and constitutionally oriented Young Turks returned to the usual Sultanic abrasiveness and brutality, which now became much more organised and sylstematic and assumed genocidal proportions.

    The massacres were premeditated : It was decided that <<the Ottomanisation of all Turkish citizens, which never succeeded through persuasion, had to be done by the force of arms>>,

    This was stated in the L o n d o n T i m e s on the 3rd of October 1911 summarizing the proceedings of the Council of Union and Progress (The Young Turks).

    At first, the persecutions took place against the Greeks, made under the pretext of the Balkan Wars (1912-1913). Persecution took the form of lootings, expulsions and murders. After the wars, persecution continued even more intensively, to the point where on the 25 of May 1914 the Ecumenical Patriarchate was forced to declare that the Orthodox Church was <<under attack>>.

    The Patriarchate, further, in a show of protest and mourning, suspended the activities of Greek churches and Greek schools throughout Turkey.

    After the declaration of World War I, the Turks found the perfect opportunity to organize more effectively the massacres against ethnic minorities, so that they could finally transform their empire into a homogeneous·nation-state.

    Prominent officers of the Young Turks movement, while serving as members of the government, organized the expulsion of the inhabitants as well as the lootings and massacres that were perpetrated against them. Specifically, Talat Pasha, minister of the interior, was prominent as the master mind of the pogroms. However, the entire Turkish state administration participated in the organization and the execution of the extermination programme.

    They began with the genocide of the Armenians, who did not possess a state which would rush to their aid and followed it up with mass expulsions and massacres of the Greeks. The victims of this period are over 2.5 million people of which 1.5 million were Armenians. In the chronological Index one can see detailed figures regarding the persecution of the Greeks of Asia Minor, Thrace and Pontos.

    Topal Osman was the butcher of Pontos. He and his "Tsetes: Turks warriors" organized the genocide of the Christians of Pontos. The populations were forced in the interior of the country, in concetration camps and prisons were they found death.

    After the end of World War I, the Allies recognized that the property, honor and life of the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire could not be protected by the Turkish government.

    They assigned to Greece the responsibility to administer Eastern Thrace and the Smyrna district. This arrangenment was contained in the Treaty of Sevres. Simultaneously, there was established a separate and independent Pontian state.

    In 1920, Alexander Millerand, president of the Supreme Allied Council stated : <<The Turkish government not only failed in its duty to protect its non-Turkish citizens from the looting, violence and murders, but there are many indications that the Turkish government itself was responsible for directing and organizing the most cruel attacks against the populations, which it was supposed to protect. For these reasons, the Allied powers have decided to liberate from the Turkish yoke all the lands where the majority of the people were non-Turks>>.

    The Treaty of Sevres was signed by the Turkish government but Mustafa Kemal refused to recognize it.

    After 40 long months of war, duringiwhich Kemal's forces secured considerable foreign assistance, the Greek military front in Anatolia collapsed.

    The Turks reoccupied Asia Minor and entered Smyrna on September 8, 1922. In Smyrna, in the meantime, there was an influx of refugees from various parts of Asia Minor. And the conquering Turks set the city on fire and unleashed the last phase of the genocide against the Greeks and Armenians.

    These were moments of unbelievable horror. The pier turned red by the blood of tlhe victims. The bishop of Smyrna Chrysostomos was publicly ridiculed and then slaughtered. Events were too horrible to even describe. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed and objective picture of the chilling Turkish crimes in his book T h e B l i g h t o f A s i a ( Indianapolis : Bobb and Merryl, 1925).

    The Treaty of Lausanne ended the Greek-Turkish war and imposed the unjust and mandatory exchange of 300,000 Turks from Greece for the 1,400,000 Greeks that survived the holocaust.

    The Greek refugees of Asia Minor, without being consulted had to give up their ancestral homes to the Turks, after almost 4,000 years of glorious and productive history.

    Through the unjust actions of massacre and persecution of Greeks and Armenians, the contemporary Turkish state was thus created. It was a state founded on crime, the state about which French prime minister George Clemanceau said on the 25th of June, 1919 : <<We do not find even one example in Europe, Asia, or Africa, where the imposition of Turkislh sovereignty had not been followed by a decline in material prosperity, and by the impoverishment of its culture. Also there does not exist one example where liberation from Turkish control was not followed by the advancement of material prosperity and an improvement of the cultural level. Whether dealing with Christians or Muslims, the Turk has managed to bring destruction whereever he conquered. The Turk has never been able to develop in peace that which he won through conquest>>.

    On the 26th of November 1979, the New York Times wrote quite characteristically : <<According to the most recent statistics, the Christian population in Turkey was diminished from ( 4.500.000 ) at the beginning of this century to just about 150,000. Of those, the Greeks are no more than 7,000 Yet, in 1923 they were as many as 1, 2 million>>. (After the massacres of many hundreds of thousands ).

    In the pages which follow you will find photographs of the cultural presence of Greeks in Asia Minor and irrefutable photographic evidence of a small sample of the Turkish atrocities which managed to destroy this splendid civilisation and to persecute millions of people.

    Even though the Turks have not yet been punished by human justice, we believe that there is a Divine Justice to which the Turks will sooner or later be answerable.


    Greek emperor of Constantinople (around 1400, 50 years prior to the Turkish conquest)...maybe typical for Greek ancestors of the Janissaries


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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    I briefly went through the racial condition of Turkey. It is from what I have read, not what I guess based on what I see.

    I had already answered what I think, which is that you seem Europid, but I would like to see higher quality pictures to give an opinion that I will not later regret. My last reply was because I thought that you are giving wrong information about the origin of Germanic people.

    I have seen many Turkic people. Some Turks have a skull shape that is something like Gorid (an East-Alpinid). Alpinid have been formed at different places and times. There is no magical genetic relation between them.

    Maybe you missed what I wrote in my reply to your first question. Here it is again:

    There is some Arabid in the south (where they could have shelter from the Mongol assaults) and Turanid (contact race from north of the Caspian Sea, and should be more Pontid-Dinarid in the western regions and Kumid in the east) in the plains of central Turkey.

    The Turks (originally from S Siberia) came only in the Middle Ages. The whole of western Turkestan was then inhabited by Pontids. From what I've read by stealing women and children they quickly took up Arabid, Pontid and yet more Armenid natives in the east. There is occasionally even Nordid Turks, and through Balkan Slavic people East-Baltid. Maybe there is also gracile Mediterranid in westernmost Turkey.




    Quote Originally Posted by Athelf
    the information that you have written was really educational but i still didnt get my answer... the link that i gave about the Turkish race... it says that we are also another branch of White race... so again.. am i white or not? and by the way many Turks from Central Asia and Caucasia have alpine skull type.. I think mine is also alpine.. Im not really sure anyways you are good at analyzing skull type...

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    Turks are white.

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    The study of races should belong to the field of natural (not social) science. Religion is an expression of culture. Language is only a communication tool. Both can be acquired ( (through language replacement) by influence and/or force. A population can receive new cultural elements without genetically being totally replaced. Populations who have the same language, culture, customs and share a history are a folk. They tend to form populations.

    Clines are formed between some folk stocks. There are always individuals who will not pass in the average type that predominate in a folk stock. If so, one can suspect an ancient or modern family lineage from a foreign folk stock where the average type got significantly (it is somewhat arbitrary where to draw the line) different traits. An individual can therefore have his racial kins somewhere else yet belong to another folk, which in the biological sense, is artificial. Countries in Europe are already too big for drawing general conclusions. We have to look at regions and districts, preferably before mass movements of populations. Industralisation in all big European countries have brought about more heterogenous populations.

    Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.

    Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.

    Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford, CA 94305-5120, USA.

    Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.

    Full article:
    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...4_p127-148.pdf

    See above, "high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia."

    The paternal gene flow from Central Asia seem to be significant, but very small.




    Quote Originally Posted by Athelf
    As I already said 100 times Im not a muslim but still you cant talk about my folk like that. Ok? If I was a Turk_Christian then my children would be like a normal white person. Right? I dont understand how does the religion effect your genes? Can you explain me that? Because what you are telling there makes no sense...
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Thursday, October 21st, 2004 at 09:08 AM.

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    And here some definitions about the Oghuz Turks.

    Anthropology

    The Oguz Turks are labeled by some historians as "the purest of Turks" in terms of race, language and culture. According to Lev Gumilev in his accredited work entitled 1,000 years around the Caspian, the Oguz in the anthropological (racial) category were Caucasoid (Europoid).

    The majority of today's Oguz Turks have light to dark skin tones and dark hair and eye colors, while lighter Europoid features including very light skin tones, blondish/brownish/reddish hair colors and light eye colors are evident in Azerbaijanis from the Republic of Azerbaijan and the northwestern region of Iran known as South Azerbaijan as well as the Turks of Turkey, Turkmens and other Oguz Turks. Elements of both Caucasoid and Mongoloid strains are evident in some.

    Like most of the other Turkic peoples, the Oguz have a round skull formation, high cheek bones and straight hair.

    source: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Oghuz_Turks

    The Turkish Race, the Characteristics of the Turkish Race
    The definitions about the Turkish Race that were made in history are quite confusing. In Chinese yearbooks as well as in Latin and Greek sources the Turks have rather been described as Mongolian types. The reason why the Turks were shown as "mongoloids" in ancient times can be explained by the fact that in those times the Mongolian element was a majority among the Turkish States. Through the whole history of the Turks, the nearest contact was to their close neighbour the Mongolians. The crowded Mongolian populations had joined under the Turkish regency (like the Tabgac's at the Asian Hun's) and ten thousands of Mongolians had shared long immigrations together with the Turks (like the East Hun's). Furthermore if we consider the possibility of mixture of the races caused by this close contact, the observation of foreigners should be not so surprising to us. Essentially the scientific investigations made in the last half of this century brought forward that the Turks belong to the white race and it came out that the Turks - belonging to the "Turanid" type of the "Europid" group which is one of the three big race groups on earth - had many different anthropological criteria that separated them in first line from the "Mongoloid" Mongolians (dominating quality white colour, straight nose, round face, lightly curly hair, middle dense beard and moustache). Furthermore, it is known that the Turkish race as in the Torah narrations (not from Ham and Sam, but from the race of Yafes) is shown from the white race. As a sample of the Turan type the Middle Asian, Maveraunnehir and other Near-East Turks were shown as white-skinned, dark shiny eyed, round faced ("moon faced, almond eyed"), well-proportioned, strong build men and women (the bust of Kül Tegin Prince of the Gök-Türk) who were show as a sample of beauty in the sources of the Middle Ages and even in Iranian literature the word "Turk" came to the meaning "beautiful human".source: http://www.ozturkler.com/data_englis...0001_01_02.htm

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athelf
    lighter Europoid features including very light skin tones, blondish/brownish/reddish hair colors and light eye colors are evident in Azerbaijanis from the Republic of Azerbaijan and the northwestern region of Iran known as South Azerbaijan
    I lived in Azerbaijan until the Turks kicked me out in the late 1980's. The majority of Azeri Turks are dark with very slanted eyes. They definitely look more like Asians(Turanids) than the Turks from Turkey proper. The very small percentage with light eyes and hairs are probably mixed with Caucasian Albanians and others around that area.

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    The anthropological could be correct (although it is of course very simplified), except that there is some bias for Turks in the info. It is a bit emotional.

    I am going to show you a Turanid (source is Gaston Backman, människoraserna och moderna rasproblem, Stockholm, Alb. Bonniers Boktryckeri, 1935) skull.


    Quote Originally Posted by Athelf
    And here some definitions about the Oghuz Turks.

    Anthropology

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    Post Re: Can anybody also classify me please!

    Genetically, the Central Asian region is quite mixed, with input from all surrounding regions and even some links with Amerinds. I'm sure that individuals display quite an array of variation, with many mixed, and some types representing more surrounding types in less mixed form.

    Populations from Turkey show mostly local Anatolian genetic background, with a small amount of Central Asian genes, on the order of 0-10%. So a majority have very little (if any) Central Asian genes, and a few individuals might show significant or even majority Central Asian genes.

    The guy in the picture on this thread does not look noticably East Asian (to my eye). This does not exclude the possibility of East Asian genes that don't express in facial phenotype, or aren't strong enough to be seen. Of course, many Europeans have some amount of extra-European genes - but are still phenotypically "Caucasoid" according to physical anthropology classification schemes.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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