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Thread: The Nordish challenge

  1. #41
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    The Nordic race is by definition the tall, blond, blue-eyed dolichomesocephalic type of Scandinavia. In England and "in the east" this type is not as important as in Scandinavia which is its area of highest concentration, coinciding with the highest concentration of I*(xI1b) chromosomes.
    And there are tall, blond, long headed (when was the Nordic race ever dolichcephalic in Scandinavia???..get your facts straight) in other parts of Europe, and these people look exactly like Scandinavian Nordics, and they are not descendants of Gravettians.



    If you have a problem with Semino's idea that the ancestors of I-people came to Europe with the Gravettian culture, send her an e-mail to correct her. Until I see different research, I will accept her opinion. Middle-East => Europe (Gravettians) => Northern Europe.
    Hahaha...I've never sen Semino link Gravettian culture to the Nordic phenotype. Show me a quote from Semino backing up your fantasies.

    What did the Gravettians look like? You've got any skeletal remains..what do we know about their pigmentation?


    These Atlantids and Meds are descended from Upper Paleolithic Europeans via a process of gracilization. The more robust types survived in the north in places like Ireland and Norway.
    Ok, so the western facade of Europe is all gracile Med, and that happened through a process of gracilization...right?

    Meanwhile, the Nordics in Scandinavia are less common than Meds are in Spain...not only that, but there are clear transitional forms from Nordic to UP types...the change is in fact very fluent...while there are no transitional forms seen in Iberia.

    So what the hell are you talking about Dienekes?


    I'm blushing.
    So you should be.



    Exactly. Highest prevalence of Nordic type = Sweden. Highest frequency of I*(xI1b) = Sweden.
    What about I1c - most common in northern Germany, which is very UP.

    And what about I in former Yugoslaviam, where rugged UP type Dinarids are the norm?


    Your correlation is not valid, as you are not taking into account the evolutionary process which led to the gracilization of the Proto-Europoid type.

    Your fantasies are not valid, because you're not taking into account any facts.

    Iberia is almost purely R, and it is almost purely Med...gracile Med, with no evidence of any gracilization period.

    You show me there was one LOL.

    Scandinavia is a mix of R1b, I and RIa...it's this complex mix of ancestries that gave rise to the Skando-Nordic phenotpe.

    Other Nordics, very similar to those in Scandinavia, rose out of populations with NO, or much less, ancestral input from groups carrying I.

    In fact, gracilization accompanied this mixing in Scandinavia to help form this Nordic phenotype in Scandinavia...which is by no more gracile than the Iberian Meds, but much less common...

    You're not gonna dig your way out of this hole Dienekes. You're babbling nonsese, and it's out for everyone to see...
    Last edited by Allenson; Tuesday, September 7th, 2004 at 06:47 PM. Reason: removal of personal insult

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    The Y-STR evidence is only part of the puzzle. That should be a given. However, to associate R with 'Med' is to make the same error Coon did with his 'greater Mediterranean race' idea. If there is a Mediterranean race, then it is proper to Southern Italy, Greece, and the Levant. Iberians are not 'typical Meds' but rather an Atlantic type (miscalled 'Atlanto-Meds').

    As for Iceland, the earliest permanent settlers there were Hebridean Vikings, Vestmenn - or the Gaelic/Viking mixed folk of the Hebrides. They also had some Irish slaves, as the Landnamabok speaks of the Irar (Irishman) Dufthakr (Dubhtach) leading a slave revolt early on in the settlement. Prof. Alfred P. Smyth makes a compelling case for the continuation of Irish Christianity amongst the Christianised Vikings in Iceland in the New History of Scotland published in the 1980s. Orlygur Hrappson and Ketil the Fool both were settlers in the parts of the island that were formerly of the 'Papar', and the former settler founded a church there which continued the cults of Ss. Patrick and Columba. So, R1b in Iceland may not all be from slave origin, but might be from the settlers as well.
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  5. #44
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    The Y-STR evidence is only part of the puzzle. That should be a given. However, to associate R with 'Med' is to make the same error Coon did with his 'greater Mediterranean race' idea. If there is a Mediterranean race, then it is proper to Southern Italy, Greece, and the Levant. Iberians are not 'typical Meds' but rather an Atlantic type (miscalled 'Atlanto-Meds').

    As for Iceland, the earliest permanent settlers there were Hebridean Vikings, Vestmenn - or the Gaelic/Viking mixed folk of the Hebrides. They also had some Irish slaves, as the Landnamabok speaks of the Irar (Irishman) Dufthakr (Dubhtach) leading a slave revolt early on in the settlement. Prof. Alfred P. Smyth makes a compelling case for the continuation of Irish Christianity amongst the Christianised Vikings in Iceland in the New History of Scotland published in the 1980s. Orlygur Hrappson and Ketil the Fool both were settlers in the parts of the island that were formerly of the 'Papar', and the former settler founded a church there which continued the cults of Ss. Patrick and Columba. So, R1b in Iceland may not all be from slave origin, but might be from the settlers as well.

    There is no direct link between these Y-chromosome markers and phenotypes...but there is a link between these Y-chromosome markers and ancestry. And ancestry does play a part in what we look like...especially when we're talking about entire populations, and not just individuals.

    My point is that those carrying R do not have to represent the so called rugged UP types.

    There are, and were, long headed, gracile types amongst those of R1b and R1a ancestry. Whether this happened through gracilization at some point, then so be it.

    And that's where the Nordic type comes from....these very populations, with some mixing from the outside.

    In fact, Nordics show more similarities to the Atlanto-Meds of the UK and Iberia, than to the south eastern Meds.

    What does that tell you? It tells you that both populations are probably related (and probably largely come from a related gene pool...R).

    So...R does not represent UP types...there is no Mediterranean racial unity...Gravettians were not Nordic.

    Coon was wrong...and Dienekes is full of hot air as well.
    Last edited by Polak; Wednesday, September 8th, 2004 at 07:00 AM.

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    Ahh, Davidski of Eurogenes vs Dienekes of Dodecad in a Skadi or tNP showdown (prescient of their Gedmatch competition) about the very largest confusion that I sometimes shed light on here at Skadi today. The question largely revolves around terminological application. Should the word Nordic be used for I1 and the word Mediterranean for I2, or should Nordic be used for R1 and R2, with Mediterranean for I1 and I2? The first model would make Alpines as R1 and tied to Himalayans as R2. Depending on your frame of reference, you may end up in an argument with somebody just as informed as you, even if you might otherwise not be at odds. Personally, I hold that R is Nordic (East Indian) and Mediterranean (European) is I, for R links with the West Indian Q and I links with the Arabian J. Not only those immediate ties are apparent, however, since R and Q are both part of K with Kvenish N and Chinese O, whose phenotypes are altered by borealisation, whereas Caucasian G and Dravidian H occupy a shared environment with Eurabian IJ to their South, although they all belong to F Y-DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos View Post
    Modern Nordics are characterized by a high frequency of Y-haplogroups I1a and I1c. According to Ornello Semino: "We propose that M170 originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, who have been associated with the Gravettian culture "

    M170 defines haplogroup I, so yes, the modern Nordics are descended from Gravettians who had previously come from the Middle East. Coon's chronology was wrong, but he was dead right that the ancestors of Nordics originated in the Middle East, and had a different origin than the "Upper Paleolithics" who originated from a Eurasian Proto-race which spawned UP Europeans, Native Americans and Mongoloids.
    Just change the name from 'Nordics' to Europeans. 'Upper Palaeolithic' 'Europeans', 'Native Americans' and 'Mongoloids' are really here meant to address R, Q and O, missing N of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak View Post
    Oh are they now Dienekes?

    Please show me those carrying I1a and I1c are "Nordic" phenotypically...and not Brunns and Borrebies.

    Also show me that remains of Gravettian people were mostly Iron Age Nordic in appearance.

    Please also explain to me how it is that those carrying R in Europe are often very different from Coon's UP types.

    For example, why do the Iberians carry so much R1b? Also, why do so many long headed Slavs carry R1a? These people don't look like Coon's UP types.

    If R was so UP (in Coon's terms) than Iberia would be awash with them...

    On the other hand, the I marker is very high in regions where UP types predominate (North Germany).

    So what gives Dienekes?
    This quote claims UP phenotypes are associated with I1 and I2 UP Europeans--Borrebies and Bruenns, that R1a Poles and R1b Spaniards (don't forget that R1b is actually higher in Ireland, then Britain, before Spain) instead perhaps fit Nords and Meds, lol. See how there's little consensus on associations and this drives an impasse without improved communication.

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