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Thread: The Nordish challenge

  1. #21
    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak

    Slavic: all Slavic nations to a greater or lesser extent.
    Unfortunately, you're wrong.

    Even Poles, Belarussians and Russians are different when it comes to anthropology and I believe even genetically, thou intermixed heavily.

  2. #22
    Member Dienekes_Pontikos's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    For example, I don't belive Nordics per se came with the Gravettian culture...and I challenge anyone to prove that they did.
    Modern Nordics are characterized by a high frequency of Y-haplogroups I1a and I1c. According to Ornello Semino: "We propose that M170 originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, who have been associated with the Gravettian culture "

    M170 defines haplogroup I, so yes, the modern Nordics are descended from Gravettians who had previously come from the Middle East. Coon's chronology was wrong, but he was dead right that the ancestors of Nordics originated in the Middle East, and had a different origin than the "Upper Paleolithics" who originated from a Eurasian Proto-race which spawned UP Europeans, Native Americans and Mongoloids.

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Regarding Nordics, Coon says they resulted from a mixture of the Corded people and the Neo-Danubians. He also says that Nordics were bleached out Meds. at some point. This would make Neo-Danubians Meds.

    I know Polak doesn't accept Neo-Danubians as a race or type but:

    Polak has given us the genetic ancestry of the Polish people in one of his posting. As I recall, they were Corded, Northern Forest people (forget the name) and some agricultural Meds. How is this substantially differernt from Coons genesis to the Nordics?

    Also, Polak, rather than just poke holes in Coon, please give us your ideas on the genesis of Nordic peoples.

  4. #24
    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    Regarding Nordics, Coon says they resulted from a mixture of the Corded people and the Neo-Danubians.
    Danubians.


    I know Polak doesn't accept Neo-Danubians as a race or type but:
    C.S. Coon insisted that a certain Mongoloid element was envolved in the formationof the ND type. Well, genetical data totally disprove.

    Acc. to anthropological science, the so called ND type of Poles and Byelorussians and maybe NE Germans is the reduced/balticized UP type.

  5. #25
    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    Modern Nordics are characterized by a high frequency of Y-haplogroups I1a and I1c. According to Ornello Semino: "We propose that M170 originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, who have been associated with the Gravettian culture "

    M170 defines haplogroup I, so yes, the modern Nordics are descended from Gravettians who had previously come from the Middle East. Coon's chronology was wrong, but he was dead right that the ancestors of Nordics originated in the Middle East, and had a different origin than the "Upper Paleolithics" who originated from a Eurasian Proto-race which spawned UP Europeans, Native Americans and Mongoloids.
    Oh are they now Dienekes?

    Please show me those carrying I1a and I1c are "Nordic" phenotypically...and not Brunns and Borrebies.

    Also show me that remains of Gravettian people were mostly Iron Age Nordic in appearance.

    Please also explain to me how it is that those carrying R in Europe are often very different from Coon's UP types.

    For example, why do the Iberians carry so much R1b? Also, why do so many long headed Slavs carry R1a? These people don't look like Coon's UP types.

    If R was so UP (in Coon's terms) than Iberia would be awash with them...

    On the other hand, the I marker is very high in regions where UP types predominate (North Germany).

    So what gives Dienekes?

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    I typed an answer to this, but it got lost, so a short short version:

    We're talking about Y-chromosomal markers here people. They probably last coincided with phenotype some 5000 years ago. So, perhaps the influx of I into Central Europe resulted in the Nordic phenotype, but that's it. Since then, lots of changes happened in male lineage of Europe.

    I don't think it's weird that 'I' could originate in the Middle East.
    It's always mentioned as originating in the Balkans, that's not so far from ME.
    It would be strange to say that R1b originated in the ME, but not 'I'.

  7. #27
    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by AWAR
    I typed an answer to this, but it got lost, so a short short version:

    We're talking about Y-chromosomal markers here people. They probably last coincided with phenotype some 5000 years ago. So, perhaps the influx of I into Central Europe resulted in the Nordic phenotype, but that's it. Since then, lots of changes happened in male lineage of Europe.

    I don't think it's weird that 'I' could originate in the Middle East.
    It's always mentioned as originating in the Balkans, that's not so far from ME.
    It would be strange to say that R1b originated in the ME, but not 'I'.

    Maybe the Y-chromosome markers diverged from these pheontypes, or maybe they didn't. It's hard to say.

    The point I'm making is that Dienekes is just floating a hypothesis here that's not based on anything but speculation....and some kind of a desire to link current genetic work to Coon.

    But at the same time, he's ignoring certain other facts, like...

    I1c is highest in Northern Germany, where UP types were and still are very common.

    R1b is very high in Iberia, where UP types are actually very rare.

    There are more such examples from other parts of Europe, such as south-central Russia (long headed, gracile types, often depigmented with high incidence of R1a).

    So to associate R with Coon's UP types, and I with gracile "Nordic" invaders is a bit of a strecth IMO.

    Dare I say, the truth is much more complex than we'd like to think. And this is why Coon has so many followers today amongst the armchair internet anthropologists/genetecists...his work is simple to comprehend, and almost reads like some kind of a novel. I think we all need to expand our horizons here...open our minds...and all the other cliches...LOL.
    Last edited by Polak; Saturday, September 4th, 2004 at 03:25 AM.

  8. #28
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Oh are they now Dienekes?
    Please show me those carrying I1a and I1c are "Nordic" phenotypically...and not Brunns and Borrebies.
    The Y-chromosome represents a small fraction of a person's genetic heritage, and has no known influence on phenotype. By definition the Nordic type is most common in Scandinavia, and Scandinavia differ from other Europeans in having elevated levels of I1a and I1c.

    Also show me that remains of Gravettian people were mostly Iron Age Nordic in appearance.
    The Nordic type did not emerge during the Upper Paleolithic. It's the ancestors of Nordics who were once Gravettians.

    Please also explain to me how it is that those carrying R in Europe are often very different from Coon's UP types.
    You're confused. A person's Y-chromosome does not determine their appearance. There's tons of American blacks with an R chromosome, just as there are Dravidians with an R chromosome.

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    Danubians.




    C.S. Coon insisted that a certain Mongoloid element was envolved in the formationof the ND type. Well, genetical data totally disprove.

    Acc. to anthropological science, the so called ND type of Poles and Byelorussians and maybe NE Germans is the reduced/balticized UP type.
    I don't remember any mention of Mongoloid element in ND other than an association with the East Baltic type and they had wide faces and upturned noses---but that alone is not saying they are Mongoloid. Can you give me a page number on this?

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Maybe the Y-chromosome markers diverged from these pheontypes, or maybe they didn't. It's hard to say.

    The point I'm making is that Dienekes is just floating a hypothesis here that's not based on anything but speculation....and some kind of a desire to link current genetic work to Coon.

    But at the same time, he's ignoring certain other facts, like...

    I1c is highest in Northern Germany, where UP types were and still are very common.

    R1b is very high in Iberia, where UP types are actually very rare.

    There are more such examples from other parts of Europe, such as south-central Russia (long headed, gracile types, often depigmented with high incidence of R1a).

    So to associate R with Coon's UP types, and I with gracile "Nordic" invaders is a bit of a strecth IMO.

    Dare I say, the truth is much more complex than we'd like to think. And this is why Coon has so many followers today amongst the armchair internet anthropologists/genetecists...his work is simple to comprehend, and almost reads like some kind of a novel. I think we all need to expand our horizons here...open our minds...and all the other cliches...LOL.
    Your last paragraph goes without saying. The evolutionary history of Europe is so complex that it is simply bewildering. Just think of the historical migrations within say the last 5,000 years. Then multiply that times the 35,000 years we know little about. People entered Europe during Paleolithic times, spread and settled. Then they migrated and came together in three or four places during the glacial period--at least the last glacial period. All their genes went into the mix-master and re-emerged in post-glacial times. Awar has pointed this out. So, it is hard to assign a marker to a particular group or race unless this marker arose very recently.

    Because of this complexity, Coon's best analysis comes in refuge areas which were the least traveled or invaded. Ireland, Iceland and Western Norway were his strong areas. Go East and Coon "goes South", as we say. This is because of the complexity.

    Also, Coon deals with small populations in far Western Europe. These people were all swamped at one time or another by invaders. Celts in Ireland swamping the old UP population, for instance. Coon dealt mostly in bones. As soon as he deviates from bones and uses blood or pigmentation and tries to correlate this with history, even he knows he is on shaky ground.

    I don't endorce "racial typing" except in the most extreme cases without a great deal more information that a snapshot. I think most of us do it for fun. It is certainly not science.

    Gravettain times (20,000 years ago) roughly equals 667 generations at 30 years per generation. The agriculturalists at 10,000 years would be half that. Is there anyone of European ancestry who doesn't believe that he has ancestors coming in these invasions? Even the most isolated living in the most remote corners of Europe must have had ancestors from this latter invasion of Euorpe. So if the genetics are so mixed up, and markers can be lost over generational time, how can absolute statements be made about their absence? You can't prove negative evidence.

    For these reasons it is hard to compare Coon's work with the work of modern genetics--but not impossible. I think it could be done using isolated populations on the periferies of Europe rather than large, centrally located populations.

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