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Thread: The Nordish challenge

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post The Nordish challenge

    I posted this on the "Northern European forum"...

    Any comments?

    Can someone explain to me how the Nordish cause benefits from being based on outdated theories (Coon) and pseudo-science (McCulloch).

    I don't see how anyone can challenge the fact that Coon's theories are not supported by any modern genetic evidence. They're just not.

    Meanwhile, McCulloch's work is not only based on Coon, but is far too amateurish to be taken seriously. Who is this McCulloch, and why should anyone believe him? What does he base his hypothesis on? Personal observations?

    To say that both Coon's and McCulloch's work is pro-Nordish is missing the point entirely...

    How about the truth?

    How can anyone take the Nordish cause seriously if it is not based on solid scientific ground???

    If anyone here wants to accuse me of trolling, then let me remind you what trolling means...it's an attempt to provoke others without putting forward a decent argument, or backing it up with facts.

    Well, how am I trolling when I'm actually right. Or perhaps someone here would like to challenge me?

    Ok then, let's have a little debate then...someone show me that Cooon's theories of Neanderthals, the greater Mediterranean race, the Neo-Danubians...blah, blah, blah...are true and compatible with the latest scientific facts.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Coon being used as a basis for any serious work today...it is not part of the curriculum of any decent learning institution...it isn't even taken seriously be anthropologists who believe in human races...

    I find this fascination with Coon in the year 2004 quite bizarre...I also find the facintaion with McCulloch's speculations ridiculous...and worrying.

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    OK, you have picked out the weakest points concerning Coon. What about Norway, Iceland and Ireland? His description of those populations had really not been challenged. Coon used the metric data developed mostly in the previous century to make his thesis. We have already discussed his weakness in Poland. Probably not only Poland but all of Eastern Europe. Still, he used the data he had to the best of his ability at that time. Remember, Coon wrote Races of Europe in 1939.

    Coon wrote Origin of Races in 1964. His basic idea was that H. erectus evolved into H. sapiens five times, not once. His ideas came from Weindenreich and have been appropriated by others in the modern era. This is the thesis you should challenge and which defies genetic evidence, not his sub-racial classification.

    As regards Neanderthals in Races of Europe, he reversed or greatly modified his ideas on Neanderthal/sapiens hybridization in Origion of Races.

    Coon's value is in recognizing UP ancestry in the peoples of Europe. He had Nordics all wrong (as bleached out Meds.) but genetics has corrected this. And his value is in creating a sub-racial terminology which is useful in conversation today. Coon contributed to Anthropology but I am not dogmatic about him.

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    OK, you have picked out the weakest points concerning Coon. What about Norway, Iceland and Ireland? His description of those populations had really not been challenged. Coon used the metric data developed mostly in the previous century to make his thesis. We have already discussed his weakness in Poland. Probably not only Poland but all of Eastern Europe. Still, he used the data he had to the best of his ability at that time. Remember, Coon wrote Races of Europe in 1939.

    Coon wrote Origin of Races in 1964. His basic idea was that H. erectus evolved into H. sapiens five times, not once. His ideas came from Weindenreich and have been appropriated by others in the modern era. This is the thesis you should challenge and which defies genetic evidence, not his sub-racial classification.

    As regards Neanderthals in Races of Europe, he reversed or greatly modified his ideas on Neanderthal/sapiens hybridization in Origion of Races.

    Coon's value is in recognizing UP ancestry in the peoples of Europe. He had Nordics all wrong (as bleached out Meds.) but genetics has corrected this. And his value is in creating a sub-racial terminology which is useful in conversation today. Coon contributed to Anthropology but I am not dogmatic about him.
    Coon's descriptions of NW Europe may have been accurate for those times, but even with such accurate data, he still made a mess of why it was so.

    His descriptions of NW Europeans in terms of where they came from, and how they formed, were simply wrong.

    Also, I have no doubt that some of Coon's (?) data or even theories were incorporated into modern theories....but that's the post-WWII work we're talking about here.

    I said it before and I'll say it again...I find the preoccupation with Coon's pre-WWII (!) work quite bizarre, and just plain stupid.

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Well, Polak, truth is always calm and at ease; it is error alone that calls for the suppression of inconvenient facts.

    So why don't you summarize briefly what your objections to the Nordish concept are? I'm sure that most here would be interested and could learn something, and questions and a challenge might follow.
    .

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    Account Inactive nemo's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Polak!

    I agree with you 100%, coon and McCulloch were nothing but psuedo historians who made all their claims on their own bigoted perceptions with no real scientific facts.
    The nordics love him because he wrote this fairytale that NE were dropped from heaven and are as pure as snow, they should have wrote for walt Disney, and their theorys have no credibility with bonofide historians and anthropologists.

    They are nothing but nordiccentrists and have the same credibility as afrocentrists and both groups live in their own world.

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggvi
    Well, Polak, truth is always calm and at ease; it is error alone that calls for the suppression of inconvenient facts.

    So why don't you summarize briefly what your objections to the Nordish concept are? I'm sure that most here would be interested and could learn something, and questions and a challenge might follow.

    Well, I only have objections to the pseudo-scientififc basis for the Nordich concept, and not the concept itself.

    I have no doubt that there is a northern European population that shows both phenotypical and genetic unity....

    We can see this with traits like blond hair, light eyes, autosomal DNA, and various mtDNA and Y-chromosome markers.

    I believe that the northern group can further be sub-divided into Atlantic, Scandinavian, Slavic and Finnic anthropological and genetic regions.

    Southern Europe is different from the north, but this difference is gradual, and often difficult to pinpoint, especially when a wide variety of markers are used.

    But to worship Coon's pre-War work, and to give any credit to McCulloch's theories (which are based on Coon) is just embarassing for any cause.

    Northern Europeans are not what Coon thought they were, in terms or origins and often phenotypes. And this is why McCulloch's work is also terribly outdated.

    That new autosomal test on ancestryDNA looks promising, in terms of showing us what Nordish (Nordid?) blood really means and where it is distributed...but it is still in its early stages.

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    By the way, if anyone's interested, here's some more info on my theory on the four Northern sub-groups...

    Atlantic: most clearly the UK and Ireland, but also much of France, the Low countries, western Scandinavia, western Germany.

    This group shares a lot of genetic and phenotypic traits with Iberians.

    Scandinavian: the Germanic core, as it were...but not pure by any means (lots of Atlantic, Slavic and Finnic blood). It includes much of Scandinavia, Germany and Holland.

    Slavic: all Slavic nations to a greater or lesser extent.

    Finnic: the Baltic nations, Finland, and Finnic populations in Russia. These groups still have a very close relationship to other Northerners despite the high incidence of Tat-C amongst them.

    The populations above blend into each other wherever they meet, and also into other European groups...

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Polak, it seems that if we have a pie and Coon has cut it into pieces, what you are saying is that, yes we have a pie but I perfer my own aportioning of pieces.

    There is one big problem is desribing people in mathematical or even genetic terms. The problem is that we as humans cannot envision it. We cannot envision a race described by alleles, markers, etc. Coon put a face on race. It is a convenient hitching post for descriptive purposes. It can also be used as a thesis for testing purposes, some of which has now been shown inaccurate. That is expected after 65 years in science.

    Njord has a point. Please specifically state your objections to Coon.

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    By the way, if anyone's interested, here's some more info on my theory on the four Northern sub-groups...

    Atlantic: most clearly the UK and Ireland, but also much of France, the Low countries, western Scandinavia, western Germany.

    This group shares a lot of genetic and phenotypic traits with Iberians.

    Scandinavian: the Germanic core, as it were...but not pure by any means (lots of Atlantic, Slavic and Finnic blood). It includes much of Scandinavia, Germany and Holland.

    Slavic: all Slavic nations to a greater or lesser extent.

    Finnic: the Baltic nations, Finland, and Finnic populations in Russia. These groups still have a very close relationship to other Northerners despite the high incidence of Tat-C amongst them.

    The populations above blend into each other wherever they meet, and also into other European groups...
    So how would you categorize Alpines?

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    Post Re: The Nordish challenge

    P.S., I have spent the last few minutes fumbling though a related or split thread referring to things in this discussion. I would like to make it clear that I am not personally insulted by anyone questioning Coon. Even thought he is my hero, he was only functioning as a servant of the truth. Secondly, as I have often remarked, I have the utmost respect for Polak and would do nothing to insult him. The very worst thing would be to lose him and the wealth of knowledge he brings to us.

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