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Thread: Victor Suvorov: Stalin Planned to Invade Western Europe

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    Senior Member ogenoct's Avatar
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    Arrow Victor Suvorov: Stalin Planned to Invade Western Europe

    Ave!

    I am reading Victor Suvorov's ICEBREAKER at the moment. He claims that Stalin already had massive plans to invade Western Europe BEFORE the Germans did. The arguments and evidence presented in the book are EXTREMELY convincing, and I am rethinking my attitude towards Stalin somewhat. I am now inclined to believe that the Nazis did the right thing when they invaded Soviet Russia. After all, it was a pre-emptive strike.

    Also, I have been reading some essays by Robert Dun, a member of the French SS-Division "Charlemagne." He used to be a die-hard Communist but then he decided to join the National SOCIALIST cause as the latter's version of socialism was more in tune with the hierarchical nature of the cosmos. Again, I am in agreement. What shall I do?

    Onwards Eurasia!

    For Race and Motherland,
    Constantin
    Last edited by ogenoct; Tuesday, July 6th, 2004 at 04:59 AM.

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Stop being so dependent on the ideologies of the past? There's more than one way to skin a cat, and many haven't been tried. The 'Eurasia/Atlantacist' interpretation of history, particularly European history, is rather shallow - I suggest you read 'Europe: A History' by Norman Davies if you want a more balanced view. As for ideology - you figure that one out.

    How would you want your economy structured?
    How much freedom/what would you permit your population to do?
    How would your political system operate, and towards what ends?
    What is your view of human nature?
    What do you identify yourself as (e.g. German, Germanic, West Europen, European, etc.) and how do you define this?
    What do you want to be achieved?

    If you can answer these questions you should be able to outline your own ideology without relying on others.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    Ave!

    I am reading Victor Suvorov's ICEBREAKER at the moment. He claims that Stalin already had massive plans to invade Western Europe BEFORE the Germans did. The arguments and evidence presented in the book are EXTREMELY convincing, and I am rethinking my attitude towards Stalin somewhat. I am now inclined to believe that the Nazis did the right thing when they invaded Soviet Russia. After all, it was a pre-emptive strike. Also, I have been reading some essays by Robert Dun, a member of the French SS-Division "Charlemagne." He used to be a die-hard Communist but then he decided to join the National SOCIALIST cause as the latter's version of socialism was more in tune with the hierarchical nature of the cosmos. Again, I am in agreement. What shall I do?

    You need to first become a beef-steak - Red on the inside, but Brown [i.e., N-S] on the out-side.

    Then, you need to become a well-done steak - Brown all the way through!
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member ogenoct's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Then, you need to become a well-done steak - Brown all the way through!
    I don't like my steak well-done. I like it cold in the middle. Still mooing...

    Constantin

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    Senior Member Licht's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    That is absolutely true that Stalin would have attacked Germany.
    The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact only extended the peace time between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich.
    That pact gave the Third Reich time to deal with France and secure the western front and the Soviet Union to annex the Baltics,Bessarabia from Romania and some land North of Leningrad from Finland (the famous Winter War).
    Also the pact said it would split Poland between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich.
    And trade was agreed on between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich.
    They only said they would lay down there gun.
    But Hitler picked it up faster then Stalin because he didn't suspect a German attack so soon as he tought Hitler would first try to defeat Great-Britain.
    Why else would Stalin have moved his troops in offensive position?
    If he had left them on defensive postion (the Stalin Line for example) Hitler would have never gotten further then the Dnjepr.
    But where the Germans whent wrong was there occupation policy.
    There was a furious debate in the NSDAP about the eastern occupation policy.
    Hitler should have picked the Ribbentrop-Schulenburg plan.
    Rather then the plan of Himmler and the SS.

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    Senior Member ogenoct's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Quote Originally Posted by Licht
    Hitler should have picked the Ribbentrop-Schulenburg plan.
    I agree. The Ribbentrop/Schulenburg plan essentially stated that as soon as certain Soviet territories were conquered, they should be given independence and made to join the Axis powers.

    Constantin

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    Senior Member Licht's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    I agree. The Ribbentrop/Schulenburg plan essentially stated that as soon as certain Soviet territories were conquered, they should be given independence and made to join the Axis powers.

    Constantin
    And it would probaly mean the end of the Soviet Union.
    Because first they welcomed the Germans as liberators (especially the non-Russians).
    But when they heard about German atrocities in the occupied areas alot of them rallied behind Stalin.
    And alot them became partisans.

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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Considering the Red Army's woeful performance in Finland in 1940, I doubt Stalin was overly eager to attack Germany. Sure, he was probably anticipating a final reckoning between the forces of National Socialism and the Communism, but not until some time well into the future. Regardless, Barbarossa coincided with Hitler's plans for acquiring Lebensraum and he would have attacked the USSR anyway, only seeing the USSR in 1941 as Britain's last hope. In 1941, the USSR was in no position to strike Germany, for several years anyway...

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    Senior Member Licht's Avatar
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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blond Beast
    Considering the Red Army's woeful performance in Finland in 1940, I doubt Stalin was overly eager to attack Germany. Sure, he was probably anticipating a final reckoning between the forces of National Socialism and the Communism, but not until some time well into the future. Regardless, Barbarossa coincided with Hitler's plans for acquiring Lebensraum and he would have attacked the USSR anyway, only seeing the USSR in 1941 as Britain's last hope. In 1941, the USSR was in no position to strike Germany, for several years anyway...
    Sounds fair but why would Stalin move his troops in offensive position?
    He knew that because of his purges that the Red Army was a bit of brain dead to say atleast.And after the Winter War he was working on that issue.
    I do agree that it was probaly unlikely that he would have attacked in 1941.
    But i still believe that he would have attacked in 1942.
    If he would have won that same year?I dont know for sure.Altrough i think he would have because the Germans would have then not yet faced the T-34's.
    And then had to face alot of them and not yet have a real answer for it.

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    Post Re: Operation Barbarossa

    Quote Originally Posted by Licht
    He knew that because of his purges that the Red Army was a bit of brain dead to say atleast.And after the Winter War he was working on that issue.
    I do agree that it was probaly unlikely that he would have attacked in 1941.
    But i still believe that he would have attacked in 1942.
    Stalin thought the non-aggression pact of '39 would have bought him several years, allowing him to make good his frightening purge losses. Naturally, he would not have been in a position to take the offensive, with confidence, probably until the mid-1940s. As for his offensive troop dispositions, he was probably just posturing, trying to persuade Hitler to keep looking west as opposed to east.

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