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Thread: Genetic Testing / DNA Ancestry

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    Post Genetic Testing / DNA Ancestry

    What is your opinion on the different tests offered here?oxfordancestors
    ancestrybydna

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    Senior Member Ederico's Avatar
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    Post Quite interesting tests

    I think those websites are interesting. As far as the test concerned I do not know much about them. I checked both FAQs of both websites and at the Oxford Ancestors website this striked me :

    Can a DNA analysis identify my racial or ethnic background?

    No. There is no genetic basis for ethnicity or race. Our MatriLine service identifies your ancient ancestral mother, who lived at a time that pre-dates our notions of ethnicity and race. We know upon which continent all the clan mothers lived, but the modern day descendents of any single clan mother will be from many different countries, ethnic backgrounds and races.
    This is the opinion of AncestryByDNA :

    What is race?

    Race is complex, and in general usage, is both a cultural and biological feature of a person or group of people. Given the fact that physical differences between populations are often accompanied by cultural differences, it has been difficult to separate these two elements. Over the past few decades there has been a movement in several fields of science to oversimplify the issue declaring that race is “merely a social construct”. While, indeed this may often be true, depending on what aspect of variation between people one is considering, it is also false for many particular instances of differences between the populations of the world.
    The first website is a Politically Correct one which probably contradicts its own essence, while the second website is probably more objective.

    I found a problem of AncestryByDNA :

    Indo-European (which includes European, Middle Eastern and South Asian groups such as Indians)
    Indo-European is not restricted to White Europeans or as we call ourselves Aryans, that would be a problem for us.

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    << Indo-European is not restricted to White Europeans or as we call ourselves Aryans, that would be a problem for us. >>

    "Indo-European" is definantly not restricted to the peoples of Europe. The Iranians, Indo-Aryans, Tocharians, Hittites, Luwians, Paliacs, Phrygians, Armenians and their descendants also belong to the Indo-European "complex" on at least a linguistic level, with many other cultural influences.

    << Race is complex, and in general usage, is both a cultural and biological feature of a person or group of people. >>

    I wish these assholes would stop being such cowards and admit what they already know: a RACE is a SUBSPECIES or BREED.

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    Senior Member Ederico's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kalos
    << Indo-European is not restricted to White Europeans or as we call ourselves Aryans, that would be a problem for us. >>

    "Indo-European" is definantly not restricted to the peoples of Europe. The Iranians, Indo-Aryans, Tocharians, Hittites, Luwians, Paliacs, Phrygians, Armenians and their descendants also belong to the Indo-European "complex" on at least a linguistic level, with many other cultural influences.
    Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but did these people migrate to Europe or did they vanish through Miscegenation? Also if Indo-European is so broad we might need to find a term that is more exclusive. Aryan is a term I like because it gives a nobler and deeper touch to our Race, simply calling ourselves White European is a bit shallow in my opinion. Anyways this is a topic for another thread, I hate when threads go off-topic.

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    << Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but did these people migrate to Europe or did they vanish through Miscegenation? >>

    There really are no definant answers when it comes to early Indo-European migrations, but the most widely-accepted theory I know of states that the proto-Indo-European homeland was in the Pontic-Caspian region. The exact size and such, no one knows, but pretty much all anthropologists will agree that by the 5th millenium bc, proto-IEs were in this area.
    Around the 4th millenium a group of proto-IEs began migrating east, some eventually getting to Northern China. It is from this eastern group that the Tocharians probably derive.
    Sometimes between 4500-3500 proto-IEs pushed their way into the Balkans. Ultimately it is from this region (called the Balkan-Danubian complex) that Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, some Italic groups, Phrygians, Hittites, Luwians, Paliacs, Iranians and Indo-Aryans derive from.
    There is another proto-IE zone refered to as the "Corded Ware Horizon", from whence the Germans, Slavs, Balts, Celts, and maybe some Italic groups ultimately derive from. But unlike the Balkan-Danubian complex, there are no CLEAR signs of movements from the Pontic-Caspian region.
    Just keep in mind that there are MANY theories about early IE history, and different people have different ideas.

    << Also if Indo-European is so broad we might need to find a term that is more exclusive. Aryan is a term I like because it gives a nobler and deeper touch to our Race, simply calling ourselves White European is a bit shallow in my opinion. Anyways this is a topic for another thread, I hate when threads go off-topic. >>

    Yes, you and I always seem to do that to threads, lol.

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    There is another proto-IE zone refered to as the "Corded Ware Horizon", from whence the Germans, Slavs, Balts, Celts, and maybe some Italic groups ultimately derive from.

    Slavs, only Slavs... all other groups just assimilated their Battle-Axe masters (and teachers)

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    Post Big Talkers: Get Tested!

    http://www.legioneuropa.org/

    BIG TALKERS: GET TESTED!

    by MX Rienzi

    Much "movement" (and non-"movement" as well) commentary on the subject of race is what we would call "subjective speculative rhetoric" - that is, commentary that is not based on verifiable facts and objective science, but rather on personal prejudices, opinions, unfounded speculation, and anecdotal "off-the-cuff" remarks. We all know of "activists" who make the most outrageous comments on race, often without any objective justification for their points. Unfortunately, even the commentaries of non-"movement" "experts" are questionable. Here we think of both the modern-day race-deniers (ex. 1, ex. 2), and the older work of the "traditional physical anthropologists" such as Coon and Sergi. Assertions on ethnoracial classifications, on the origins of different peoples, on the origins of different traits, as well as the "loaded question" of admixture - all of these are made while "standing on weak ground"; in addition, the errors compound themselves over time, since the "racial big-talkers" of today often quote the errors of yesterday in a rhetorical "appeal to authority" (e.g.; "Coon or Sergi or whomever said it, so it must be true"). Thus, the same nonsense is amplified generation after generation.

    Today we have the advantage of genetic studies (as well as more data on racial history and phenotypic analyses) to sort out the truths about ethnicity and race. However, here too there are often problems, as we have discussed. Rising above all of this is a commercially available genetic ancestry test - Ancestry by DNA (ABD) 2.0, by the company DNA Print Genomics, Inc.. This test uses dozens of informative autosomal DNA markers and a special computer program to determine any individual's "precise ancestral proportions", in other words, it gives a "maximum likelihood estimate" (MLE) of a person's ancestry deriving from a) Indo-European, b) sub-Saharan African, c) East Asian-Pacific Islander, and d) Native American (Amerindian) sources. The test is excellent, as clearly demonstrated by this case study.

    Therefore, there is no longer any need for subjective speculative rhetoric about any person's overall racial ancestry. Their MLE can be determined. The test may be expensive for some, but think of it as a "one-time investment" in your racial self-awareness and your commitment to racial honesty.

    Now, let us make on thing clear. We do NOT believe that any person of European descent should be judged by their gene markers (or someone's subjective evaluation of their phenotype either). What we are saying is:

    a) The ABD 2.0 test (and the total of all soundly-designed genetic studies in the literature) is infinitely better than subjective speculative rhetoric. We are not saying that everyone should be tested, but we are saying that ABD 2.0 test results should be accepted, studied, and considered superior to someone just stating an opinion in the absence of objective facts (a MLE rating is an example of an objective fact. Person A calling Person B a "mulatto", based on nothing other than person B's ethnicity is an example of subjective rhetoric).

    b) We make one big exception to our opinion that Euros need not be tested, and that results (if they are tested) should not determine their overall worth. The exception is this:

    Any person who engages in (negative) commentaries (particularly subjective speculative rhetoric) about the racial ancestry of any other person or ethnie - especially Euros stating that other Euros have African/East Asian-Pacific Islander/Amerindian admixture - must themselves be tested via ABD 2.0, and make the results of their test public. Furthermore, they must accept the objective factual evidence of the ABD 2.0 MLEs of other people.

    After all, we must have racial honesty, which is based on the concept of "racial transparency" - that is, anyone who wants to critique the ancestries of others had better be forthcoming about their own genetic ancestry; otherwise, who knows what they really are? That some of these people seem to want to hide behind their belonging to certain "favored ethnies" or some type of "favored phenotype" is totally unacceptable. There is no European or Euro-American ethnie whose members are factually known to be completely free from African/East Asian-Pacific Islander/Amerindian admixture, and "phenotype" can hide what's really in the "genetic woodpile" as well. One would think that this is a very honorable "fair challenge": those who talk big in race take, and publicize the results of, the ABD 2.0 test. Are some "White supremacists" or "Nordicists" afraid of what they might find if they take the test? Are they afraid they may get a MLE that shows significant African/East Asian-Pacific Islander/Amerindian admixture? Or, are they afraid that those who ancestries they attack may in fact be shown to have a MLE that exhibits no African/East Asian-Pacific Islander/Amerindian admixture?

    Instead, let us say this. All those who say we should be inclusive, and fight for the rights and survival of all peoples of European descent, all those who want to be as truthful and accurate as possible about race - these people do not take ABD 2.0. Those who feel differently, must take the test, let all know the results, and honor the results of others.

    That's what Racial Honesty and Racial Transparency are all about.


    Note:

    Evidence that the type of technology used in ABD 2.0 works:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entre...&dopt=Abstract

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    True

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    So, what happens when a "big talker" takes the test and is confirmed 100% Indo-European (whatever that means in terms of racial "purity")?

    There's always going to be "big talkers." Why do they bother you so much? Just ignore them or counter their arguments. I think most people are annoyed with the "big talker" types anyway.

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    I also would encourage the 'big talkers' on the Mediterranean side (gee, we don't know any of those? ) to get one of these tests done. I'm going to do it one of these days out of curiosity. I want to get the next phase of the Ancestry By DNA test (3.0), though, as it is more geographically specific. On their website it mentions 3.0 being available by late 2003. But I wouldn't be surprised if we had to wait another year for it.

    Phenotype is more important to people than genes.

    I would rather be with someone of Central European Danubian phenotype who possibly has East Asian genes from 16 centuries ago than someone from Southern Europe who proves to be 100% Indo-European genetically but resembles Vin Diesel. Just my 2 cents.

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