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Thread: Is Part of the German Constitution Un-changeable?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Aptrgangr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelfgar View Post
    You're making an argument out of nothing, Aptrgangr.
    Where exactly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelfgar View Post
    Yes, constitutions vary in character but they all serve the same basic purpose. As long as we all know what we are talking about.
    Do they? If that was the case, you certainly could provide some examples.
    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.

  2. #12
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    I think they were making a reference to the eternity clause (Ewigkeitsklausel) in the German constitution. Such clause exists not only in the German constitution though, but also in other European countries like Norway, the Czech Republic, Italy or Greece. The clause is there to make it difficult, but not impossible, to change the basic structure.

    The fundamental principles, (i.e., "the basic principles" of Articles 1 and 20) which can not be changed are as follows:

    • Duty of all state authority: "The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority." Art. 1;
    • Acknowledgement of human rights: "The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world." Art. 1 Para. (2);
    • Directly enforceable law: "The following basic rights bind the legislature, the executive and judiciary as directly enforceable law." Art. 1 Para. (3);
    • Republic (form of government): Art. 20 Para. (1);
    • Federal state (Länder): Art. 20 Para. (1);
    • Social state (welfare state): Art. 20 Para. (1);
    • Sovereignty of the People: "All state authority emanates from the People." Art. 20 Para. (2);
    • Democratic: "All state authority is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by specific legislative, executive and judicial organs." Art. 20 Para. (2);
    • Rule of law (Rechtsstaat): "Legislation is subject to the constitutional order. The executive and judiciary are bound by the law." Art. 20 Para. (3);
    • Separation of powers: "Specific legislative, executive and judicial organs," each "bound by the law." Art. 20 Paras. (2) and (3).
    The reason is they consider these principles essential for a democracy and want to avoid a dictatorial system. So even if there was a parliament majority in favor of changing these principles, they couldn't be changed, and any legislation passed that would violate these principles would be considered invalid. Although these basic principles are protected from being repealed, their particular expression may still be amended, such as to clarify, extend or refine an entrenched principle.

    ...the only way that Articles 1 and 20 can be amended is through Article 146, which requires "a constitution that is adopted by a free decision of the German People."
    ...a properly drafted entrenchment clause makes some portion of a basic law or constitution irrevocable except through the assertion of the right of revolution.
    Here is what Article 146 says:

    This Basic Law, which since the achievement of the unity and freedom of Germany applies to the entire German people, shall cease to apply on the day on which a constitution freely adopted by the German people takes effect.
    So what this theoretically means is that if one day, the German people as a whole decided they no longer wanted this (part of the) constitution, they would have the right to change it with another constitution, or amend it.
    "Tradition doesn't mean holding on to the ashes, it means passing the torch."
    - Thomas Morus (1478-1535)

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  4. #13
    Senior Member Aelfgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    Where exactly?
    I mean you are being argumentative/oppositional for no good reason. It seems to me.

    Do they? If that was the case, you certainly could provide some examples.
    I thought your point was that the German const. has important differences to the American one. I was just saying yes, I realise that.

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    Senior Member Aelfgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmetterling View Post
    Here is what Article 146 says:

    "This Basic Law, which since the achievement of the unity and freedom of Germany applies to the entire German people, shall cease to apply on the day on which a constitution freely adopted by the German people takes effect."

    So what this theoretically means is that if one day, the German people as a whole decided they no longer wanted this (part of the) constitution, they would have the right to change it with another constitution, or amend it.
    So, could the German Chancellor hold a referendum on changing the Basic Law or (as the commentator I originally quoted said) would it require a popular uprising?

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    Senior Member Theunissen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/e..._gg.html#p0421



    So it seems to be correct they can not be changed/amendmented legally. However article 146 says that the Base law will no longer apply when the German people adopts freely a constitution of their own. However according to my knowledge this has never happened. So Germany is still under juristiction of a set of laws written by the occupation forces. Now about the coup, part. How will carry that one out? German military, or the forces of the only occupying power who still has a presence there?
    The text was written by Germans, but required the approval by the Allied occupation powers.

    Interesting to learn that the unchangeable articles would be 1 and 20 and not 1-20.

    Well the one is about "Human Rights" and the other one is about Germany having to be a "democracy".

    Reading through the document it anyway appears that it is influence far too much by egalitarian principles and the idea of "Human Rights" (Which I reject).
    Human Rights is a primer for World Communism, simply read the Declaration of Human Rights and check what it actually infers.

    A constitution should set the structure of jurisdictions within a country and should define several things properly. It guides the workings of the political institution in a country. Not more.

    As said the text is already to left-leaning, but imagine what would be the outcome, if present day Germans would have to decide on a new one. They are so brainwashed, it would be probably worse.

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    Senior Member Aelfgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theunissen View Post
    A constitution should set the structure of jurisdictions within a country and should define several things properly. It guides the workings of the political institution in a country. Not more.

    As said the text is already to left-leaning, but imagine what would be the outcome, if present day Germans would have to decide on a new one. They are so brainwashed, it would be probably worse.
    Some say Britain should have a written constitution but I'm against it because here as well it would capture the current hysteria about egalitarianism and diversity. Also, it would cause unnecesary inflexibility in our laws and political sytem (which sucks, but that's another subject).

  8. #17
    Senior Member Aptrgangr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelfgar View Post
    I mean you are being argumentative/oppositional for no good reason. It seems to me.
    So you just want to have an echo-chamber, not a contoversial debate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelfgar View Post
    I thought your point was that the German const. has important differences to the American one. I was just saying yes, I realise that.
    If you say there is a German constitution, you need to prove its existence. I never claimed there was one, and the USA has a constitution indeed, since it is unique, why would it be compared with anything?
    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.

  9. #18
    Senior Member Aelfgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    So you just want to have an echo-chamber, not a contoversial debate?
    A slight echo would suit me.
    A slight echo would suit me.
    A slight echo would suit me.

    If you say there is a German constitution, you need to prove its existence. I never claimed there was one, and the USA has a constitution indeed, since it is unique, why would it be compared with anything?
    Okay, there is no German constitution. We live and learn.

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    Maybe Swedish pacifism and German disarmament have something to do with multikulti invasion. Whatever's in the law of the land that keeps folks defenseless, ought to be the equivalent of taking away the 2nd Amendment in the US Constitution.

  11. #20
    Senior Member Aptrgangr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelfgar View Post
    Okay, there is no German constitution. We live and learn.
    You see. That's why it is called Grundgesetz in German, not Verfassung.
    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.

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