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Thread: The Bokelj People - Autochthonous Croats

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    Post The Bokelj People - Autochthonous Croats

    Bokeljs

    The Bokelj people (pl. Bokelji) are the inhabitants of the Boka Kotorska (hence the name) and adjacent regions (near the towns of Kotor, Tivat, Herceg Novi, Risan, Perast).

    Origin
    The Bokelj designation is regional rather than ethnic. These Slavic people originated in the medieval duchy of Duklja which was one of the original principalities from which the Serbian state evolved. Today's Bokelji are mostly Serbian Orthodox and Serb, with an important Catholic and Croat segment.

    Ethnic structure in more distant past (700- 1300 years) is impossible to decipher invoking older historical sources, since they give contradictory "evidence" and are, to various degrees, discredited as credible sources. Old texts (Porphyrogenetus, Skylitza, Zonara, Briennius, Toma Arcidjakon, Libellus Gothorum, Ibn Idrisi, various Venetian sources (Ivan Djakon, Dandolo, )..give contradictory pictures that descibe the inhabitants of the area (which included almost entire contemporary Montenegro) as Slavs, Serbs, Croats, Romans,..and mixture of them. The first king of Dioclea Mihajlo (1074.-1081.) contemporary chronicler, Byzantine historian John Scylitza refers to as "...the ruler of those who call themselves Croats..". Other sources give different designations. As for the later period (1500s on), it is evident that Boka bay inhabitants considered themselves "Slovins" (Catholic version of nascent pan-Slavism) and, when referring to themselves they used Croatian name (for instance, in famous dedication Kotor noble Maro Dragovic addressed the father of Croatian philology Bartol Kasic in late 1500s). However, historically Dioclea came under the Serbian rule in early 13th century (Stefan Nemanja, who fled to Dioclea in 1130., was baptised in Roman rite, since there was no Eastern Orthodoxy in Dioclea in that time. But-it belongs to the denominational sector). Although Serbian Orthodox proselytism was partially successful, Dioclea remained mostly Catholic up until Turkish conquest in the 15-16. cent. There was no explicit expression of Serbian ethnic consciousness among Catholic Montenegrins (as Dioclea, then Zeta became known), particularly in large tribes of Bjelopavlovici, Piperi or Bratnozici. In early 1600s, many Catholic Montenegrins were, due to lack of clergy and the privileged status of Serbian Orthodox church within Ottoman empire (priviled when compared to Catholic) shifted their denominational allegiances to the Orthodox (mostly) and Islamic faith. This can be seen in the letter of Juraj Vuskovic from 1633., a native from Montenegro, who wrote on this matter to the Roman Inst. of St. Jerome, upon revisiting his home country. During Turkish oppression in 1648.-, many Catholics converted to Islam, particularly in Bar and Herceg Novi. When ethnic-religious strife culminated in 1709. and later ("istraga poturica"), many Montenegrin muslims fled to Bosnia and Herzegovina. The dominant ethnic surname among them was almost exclusively referring to Croat ancestry (Hrvat, Harvat, Arvat= Croat): Hrvat, Hrvo, Hrvacic, Arvat, Arvatovic etc. In Sokolovic area near Rudo in Eastern Bosnia lived even in 1932. 10 muslim families with surname Hrvat whose ancestors had emigrated from Montenegro. The similar situation was in Rogatica, Tuzla, Zvornik,.., with onomastic tags as: Arvati (Tuzla-Konjuh, Gracanica, Zvornik), mahalas Hrvati (Lukavac, Tuzla), Rvacka (two villages in Sandzak), Hrvatin (near Novi Pazar in Raska). As for Boka bay, it's even more unimaginable that Serbs would be dominant ethnic element, considering that the majority of populace simply became Serbs due to conversion to Serbian Orthodoxy in the hinterland- a process that lasted more than 5 centuries.

    The Catholics constituted the majority up to the 2nd half of the 19th century, but according to some opinions were mostly descendants of converts during Venetian rule. Also, having in mind that the entire region of Boka bay and the great part of Montenegro had remained Catholic for centuries after the East-West Christian split in 11th century, some historians claim that the majority of Orthodox people in the region are converts from Catholicism, creating a new ethnic-religious landscape of the area, especially after the expulsion of Islamized inhabitants in the 18th century.

    Population
    The three counties making up Boka Kotorska have a total population of 71,443 which has about 76% Orthodox and 11% Catholics:

    Kotor 23,481: 78% Orthodox, 13% Roman Catholic, 65% Serbian language
    Tivat 13,991: 65% Orthodox, 23% Catholic, 65% Serbian language
    Herceg-Novi 33,971: 84% Orthodox, 4% Catholic, 81% Serbian language
    Large numbers of Bokelji emigrated to the Dalmatian islands of Brac, Hvar, Korcula and the city of Dubrovnik.

    History & Monuments made by Bokeljs
    The Boka region has a long naval tradition -- ever since the middle ages the Bokeljs had a very strong fleet, which counted as many as 300 ships in the 18th century. Boka was a rival to Dubrovnik and Venice.

    The Bokelj Marine 809 (Bokeljska mornarica 809) is a confraternity founded in the 19th century whose aim was to promote nationalism among the inhabitants. In 809 the remains of St Tripun were brought by Bokelj mariners from Asia Minor to Kotor. The Cathedral of St. Tripun in Kotor is the oldest cathedral in Boka, built in 1166.

    There are two beautiful churches on two islets in Boka bay created by the Bokeljs. Both were built in the first half of the 17th century. The two churches are called Sveti Djuradj and Gospa od Škrpjela near the town of Perast.

    It is interesting that the Church of Gospa od Skrpjela is built on an artificial island. Each year a procession of Bokeljs encircle in numerous fishing boats and pilgrims throw pebbles around it. These was a tradition that was done for some 100 years to create it.

    An important monument, showing uninterrupted presence of the Bokeljs in Boka kotorska during many centuries, is the cathedral of St. Tripun in the town of Kotor, built as early as 1166. It represents the oldest known Bokelj cathedral. Its ciborium is decorated with a beautiful interlace pattern which is even older than the church itself, and of the same type as numerous exotic interlace patterns found in many pre-Romanesque churches along the Adriatic coast.

    The town of Kotor has a surrounding wall which is about 5km long. This wall was built to protect the capital of Boka.

    The Benedictine order has been present in the region of Boka kotorska since the 9th century. Today this region has about a hundred of Catholic churches and chapels. However there are more then twice as many Orthodox churches and chapels, and the only monasteries in the area are Serb.

    The town of Perast had extremely difficult moments in 1654 when the attacks of the Turks were especially dangerous, they were doing this because the Bokeljs sank an Ottoman ship. The brave and successful defence of Perast and Boka by Bokeljs received attention all over Europe. This was the reason of the arrival of Petar Zrinski, a famous statesman in Europe who also had numerous dramatic battles with the Turks. During his three day sojourn in Perast he presented his legendary sword to the town, as the sign of his recognition to their efforts to defend their homeland, and to stop the approach of the Ottoman Empire to Middle Europe. However close to half the defenders were Serb and Montenegrin, who have had sizable numbers in the area for a long time.

    The Benedictine order has been present in the region of Boka kotorska since the 9th century. Today this region has about a hundred of Catholic churches and chapels. However there are more then twice as many Orthodox churches and chapels, and the only monasteries in the area are Serb.

    The town of Perast had extremely difficult moments in 1654 when the attacks of the Turks were especially dangerous, they were doing this because the Bokeljs sank an Ottoman ship. The brave and successful defence of Perast and Boka by Bokeljs received attention all over Europe. This was the reason of the arrival of Petar Zrinski, a famous statesman in Europe who also had numerous dramatic battles with the Turks. During his three day sojourn in Perast he presented his legendary sword to the town, as the sign of his recognition to their efforts to defend their homeland, and to stop the approach of the Ottoman Empire to Middle Europe. However close to half the defenders were Serb and Montenegrin, who have had sizable numbers in the area for a long time.

    Famous Bokeljs and their achievements
    Matej Zmajević (a.k.a Matija Zmajević) (1680-1735) was a Bokelj. He was the admiral of Baltic navy and the ship-builder of the famous Russian tsar Peter I the Great, and for whom he built a fleet in Voronezh. Matej Zmajević had great successes in maritime battles against Sweden, and for this reason he was decoreated with the order of Aleksandar Nevski. Zmajević was burried with greatest military honours in the Catholic church in Moscow. As a result of Zmajević's victory Peter the Great sent some of his young officers (bolyars) to the town of Perast in Boka in order to study maritime sciences there.

    Very important historical source for early Bokelj history is Libellus Gothorum, a chronicle from the 12th century known to the Bokelj as Ljetopis popa Dukljanina. It was written by Archbishop Grgur of Bar (Dioclea, Duklja). The chronicle represents the oldest historiographic work of Bokeljs.

    Tripun Kotoran, a Bokelj and a goldsmith, worked on the court of Ivan Grozny in Moscow in 1476.

    One of the earliest Slavic typographers was Andrija Paltašić (~1450-1500), a Bokelj born in the town of Kotor. He was one of the best Venetian typographers around 1480, who printed more than 40 incunabula, among them the Bible in Italian language. We also mention by the way that a very old missal from 12th century - the Kotor missal, is held in St. Petersburg, Russia.

    Nikola Modruški (a.k.a. Nicolaus Machinensis, Nicolo di Cattaro) (~1427-1480), born in Boka kotorska, was bishop of Modrus in Lika, Pope's representative at the court of Stjepan Tomašević in Bosnia, and on the court of the Hungarian king Matijaš Korvin in Budim, his huge library was left to the newly founded Vatican library (founded by Pope Sixtus IV). In 1478/79 he wrote a treatise in defence of the Glagolitic alphabet which he sent from Rome to the Modruš bishopric. It is regarded to be the first polemic treatise in the history of Croatian literature, and it was written in the Glagolitic Script. Buried in the church of Santa Maria del popolo in Rome.

    Sea-captain Krsto Čorko, born in Perast, was Spanish Marquis and Governor of Balearic islands in the second half of the 17th century.

    Captain Petar Želalić (Zhelalich), 18th century, born in Boka kotorska, was a member of Order of Maltese Knights. He became famous after his ship defeated a huge Turkish ship called The Ottoman Crown.

    In 1782 Krsto Mazarević from the city of Kotor performed a flight in two balloons.

    Another outstanding Bokelj is captain Ivan Visin born in Prcanj in Boka. His travel around the world started in Antwerpen in 1852 (his ship "Splendido" was 30m long, 311 metric tons of cargo) and ended successfully in Trieste in 1859. He was only the sixth after Magellan to do a similar exploit. For his brave undertaking, which was of the historical importance, he had been decorated by a flag of honour Merito navali by the Austrian Emperor (in fact, Visin was the only one who ever obtained such an honour). The trophy is held in Prcanj. Visin also became the honorary citizen of Trieste.

    Antun Luković, descendant of an old Bokelj family from Boka kotorska, was the chief engineer in the project of building the Suez Canal (1859-1869).

    There have been three people from Boka who have become saints or been blessed by the Vatican, and they are:

    St. Leopold Bogdan Mandić (1866-1942),
    blessed Ozana Kotorka (a.k.a. Katarina Kosić, 1493-1565),
    blessed Gracija iz Mula (1438-1508)
    Saint Leopold Bogdan Mandić (1866-1942) was born in Herceg Novi in Boka kotorska, and died in Padova, Italy. Physically malformed and delicate, having height of only 1.35m, with clumsy walk and stuttering, he developed tremendous spiritual strength. Although he wanted to be missionary in Eastern Europe, he spent almost all of his adult life in Italy, and lived in Padova from 1906 until the end of his life. He spent also one year in Italian prison during the WWI, since he did not want to renounce his Bokelj nationality. He dreamed unceasingly about going to Orient, but one day he gave Communion to a very good person. He became known as Apostle of Confession and Apostle of Unity. He made a famous prayer that is the forerunner of today's Ecumenism.

    According to local folklore in the village of Kru?evice, Pope Sixtus V has Bokelj roots from his father's side. As local saying goes, he originates from the Orthodox Svilanović family. Pope Sixtus V was said to use the nickname Perreto and use three pears in his personal coat-of-arms, this, the Bokelji claim is proof since the village of Kru?evice means pear.

    An outstanding Bokelj intellectual born in 1919 in Boka kotorska was Luka Brajnovic, professor of Ethics of the University of Navarra, a former director of the Institute of Artes Liberales, a well known Spanish intellectual. Premio Brajnovic a la communication is a prestigious Spanish award (500,000 pesets) established in his honor during his lifetime upon the initiative of newspapermen and lecturers from the University of Pamplon. Others include Croatian academicians like Dionis Sunko (organic chemistry) and Josip Pečarić (mathematics).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokelji


    Bunjevci

    Bunjevci (singular Bunjevac, pronounced Bunye'vtzi and Bunye'vatz resp.) are a South Slav ethnic group originally from the Dinaric Alps region, now mostly living in the Bačka/Bácska (today northern Serbia or Vojvodina) and southern Hungary (particularly in the Baja region). They are generally Roman Catholic by faith. By nationality, they register both as Croats and as a separate ethnic group.

    History
    The Bunjevci migrated from their previous location into Bačka in several groups in 1682, 1686, 1687. Bunjevci also live in present-day Lika, western Herzegovina as well as the Dalmatian hinterland, but there they do not register as an ethnic group.

    There are several explanations for their name, most common of which is that it comes from the river Buna in central Herzegovina, their supposed original homeland before their migrations. However, it is not exactly certain from which exact part of the Dinaric Alps the Bunjevci came. Due to the fact they speak the ikavian štokavian dialect of the Serbo-Croatian group, some claim that they originate from northwestern Herzegovina and northern Dalmatia.

    Historic documents also refer to Bunjevci as Dalmatians, Bosnians, Catholic Serbs, Catholic Rascians, Racz Catholics, Vallachs-Catholics etc. The 19th century brought on a period of nationalism, including Magyarization and the Croatian romantic nationalism. Some Bunjevci developed a Croat national feeling in mid-19th century, when the Hungarian royal censa started registering "Croats" rather than regionally named groups. Notably, the bishop of Subotica Ivan Antunović (1815–1888) supported the notion of calling Bunjevci and Šokci (another similar Catholic group that lives in Vojvodina) Croats.

    In 1880, they founded Bunjevačka stranka, an indigenous political party. During this time, opinions varied on whether the Bunjevci should try to assert themselves as a standalone ethnic group, or side with either the Serbs or the Croats. Nationally, the Magyar censa from 1880 onward to 1910 numbered the Bunjevci distinctly, separate from the Serbs even though they were referred to as Catholic Serbs.

    In October 1918, Bunjevci held a national convention in Subotica and decided to secede Vojvodina from Hungary and join Serbia. This was confirmed at the Great National Assembly of Serbs, Bunjevci and other Slavs in Novi Sad, which proclaimed unification with the Kingdom of Serbia in November of 1918. The subsequent creation of the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (renamed Yugoslavia in 1929) brought the Bačka Bunjevci in the same country with the Croats.

    After 1945, in Communist Yugoslavia the census of 1948 did not officially recognize the Bunjevci, and instead merged their data with the Croats, but otherwise did not try to assimilate them, given that the Bunjevac schools in Vojvodina also taught the Serbian version of the unified language.

    Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, the renewed Bunjevac national movement was officially recognized as a minority group in Serbia in 1990. The community, however, has been divided around the issue of the name: in the 1991 census, in terms of ethnicity, around 20,000 declared themselves Bunjevci whereas some 25,000 declared themselves Croats; in 2002, there were again around 20,000 Bunjevci and around 55,000 Croats in Vojvodina (although not all of the Croats had Bunjevac roots). Both parts of the community consider themselves ethnologically as Bunjevci, although each subscribing to its interpretation of the term.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci


    Janjevci

    Janjevci are inhabitants of the Kosovo town of Janjevo and surrounding villages, located near Pristina as well as villages centered around Letnica near Vitina.

    The Janjevci as a specific group are one of two Roman Catholic South Slavic regional subgroups in Kosovo. The Janjevci developed Croatian national identification during the 20th century as they are believed to be descended from traders that came from the Dubrovnik Republic in the late middle ages.

    Ever since 1974, they have been migrating from Kosovo to Croatia, during the process of Yugoslavia's disintegration and the Yugoslav wars.

    In 1992, some inhabitants from Letnica emigrated to Croatia and settled in abandoned homes of Serbs in the villages of Voćin and Varešnica in western Slavonia. Their Serb inhabitants had previously fled due to the war in Croatia.

    Many of the Janjevci settled in Serb homes in inner Dalmatia in 1996, particularly the village of Kistanje which was abandoned in 1995 following Operation Storm. Now that some of the Serbian refugees have returned, the village is divided between two hostile communities.

    Before the Kosovo War began, there were 8,062 Janjevci in Kosovo. After it, only around 750 remained, the rest fled mostly to Croatia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjevci

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    BOKELJI

    Bokelji are Montenegrin population of Boka Kotorska.Most are ORTHODOX,while some are Catholic.
    Regions of Boka Kotorska(Bocca de Cotaro) constitutes towns of Kotor(50-50%)Orthodox/Catholic,Tivat(Mostly Catholic),Risan(Orthodox),Perast(Orthodo x),Herceg Novi(Orthodox).

    Boka Kotorska was traditionally part of Venetian empire,where Catholic religion was official.Before Boka became Venetian,its was divided between Serbian lands Zeta(Montenegro)and Paganija(Hercegovina).
    Population was mostly mixed Romanic and Slavic(Serbian).
    Serbian ruler Stefan Nemanja was born in Kotor.

    Large number of local Montenegrin Serbs where forced do addopt Catholicism.
    Most of the Serbs where Orthodox,so Catholic Serbs represented special cathegory of population.
    Further west-Croats,nation with language almost identical with Serbian where Catholics.

    Catholic Slavic population of Boka considered themselves 'Bokelji'.They considered themselves as special cathegory of population.
    They never considered themselves as Croats,at least not at beggining.

    As Boka became austrian territory,Austrian administration considered all Catholic South Slavs,east of Slovenia-Croats.
    State Catholic church also forced that opinion.
    So every Serb,forced to Catholicism became Croat,by default.

    Bokelji had historic symphaties towards Montenegro,and identical national customes as Orthodox Montenegrins.

    Serbian singer Rambo Amadeus(Antinio Pusic),is Bokelj and he consider himself as Montenegrin,not 'Croat'.
    Belgrade is full of Bokelj people,which identify as 'Serb'or 'Montenegrin'.

    Only place is Boka,which consider itself Croat is Tivat.Catholic prelate in Tivat(from Croatia),is rabid supporter of secession of Montenegro from Serbia.He and other Croatian agents are main acters of 'Croatisations' of Boka.

    Zvaci-"..Arvati-Tuzla,Konjuh,Rvatska-two places in Sandzak"..

    "Rvati"means in Serbian-'to restlle'.

    There is a village Zagreb,south of Belgrade.This offcourse means that Belgrade was Croatian city :p

    There is 'Beograd' in Russia-BELGOROD.
    This offcourse means that Russia was part of Serbia before..

    I dont think so..

    In old Serbian dialect..
    HRVAC-RESTLLER
    HRVATI-TO RESTLLE,modern-Rvati

    Nothing to do with Croats(Hrvati),which name came from Charpatians-Charpaty,Chrobaty,Chrobatia.

    Zvaci-"there are twice as many Orthodox church and chapels,and the only manasteries in area are Serb.."

    Which is offcourse evidence that Boka is Croatian land ...Not


    Zvaci-"Tripun Kotoranin,a Bokels and goldsmith,worked on the court of Ivan Grozny in Moscow in 1476.."
    Off course as 'Croat' he gone to MOSCOW.We all know that Croats are traditional friends of Russians

    All SERBS in that time had gravitation towards Russia,which they consider as great Orthodox friend and benefactor.

    Zvaci-"One of earliest Slavic typographers was Andria Paltasic...He was best Venetian typographer.."
    As Venetian typographer he couldnt be Slavic one(besides his origin).

    One of first Slavic typographers was Makarije,from Cetinje,Montenegro.Under rule of Djuradj Crnojevic printinghouse was builded(1492-1496),where first Serbian printing books where maded.And also first Cyrillic printed books.


    BUNJEVCI

    Zvaci-"..they register both as Croats and as separate ethnic group."

    Bunjevci are Catholicized Serbs from Bosnia.Becouse they are Catholics,Croatians claimed them as their own.

    Zvaci-"Historic documents also refer to Bunjevci as Dalmatians,Bosnians,CATHOLIC SERBS,catholic RASCIANS,RACZ catholics,Vallach Catholics.."

    RASCS,RACZ have been old name for Serbs in German and Hungarian.Named after Raska.

    Good that he mentioned that.

    Zvaci-"the bishop of Subotica Ivan Antunovic...supported the notion of calling Bunjevci...Croats"

    Logically,since Ivan Antunovic was Croat.

    Zvaci-"In October 1918,Bunjevci had national convention in Subotica and decided to secede Vojvodina from Hungary and join SERBIA.."

    Which is offcourse another evidence that Bunjevci are 'Croats'..hehe

    I have personally saw TV documentary about Bunjevci on Novi Sad Tv(Vojvodinian).As Catholics,they belong to juristiction of Bishop in Janjevo(Croatia).
    They said that Bishop told them in mass,that in future they declare themselves as 'Croats' in state polls.
    Elderly Bunjevci have said that was strange to them,since they never considered themselves as Croats.


    JANJEVCI

    They are ehnic Croats,colonized there by medieval Serbian rulers as miners.



    Conclusion..


    According to Zvaci,if Serb became Catholic,then automatically became Croat.

    That also mean that if I convert into Catholicism,i became Croat and my descendants are Croats?

    I dont think so...

    Serbs and Croats where not same nation divided into two versions of christianity.

    Before migrations into Balkans Serbs and Croats where seperate ethnities,and under their names they came in this region.

    If Serb became Catholic,he is still Serb.
    Serb converted to Shintoism cannot became Japanese.
    Atheist Serb is still Serb.

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Learn to use quote tags, none can track this mess

    its:

    [ Q U O T E ] bla bla bla [ / Q U O T E ]
    Leave no space in between

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    According to Zvaci,if Serb became Catholic,then automatically became Croat.
    No, just a Catholic Serb.
    You like to put words in other peoples mouth don't you?

    If Serb became Catholic,he is still Serb.
    Serb converted to Shintoism cannot became Japanese.
    Atheist Serb is still Serb.
    If a 'Serb' is declaring him self as a Croat, he's a Croat.

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvaci
    If a 'Serb' is declaring him self as a Croat, he's a Croat.
    Do you consider Serbs living in Croatia to be Croatians?
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I really worked, is mine." - Nikola Tesla

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Bunjevci and Sokci are Croats. They originated in Dalmatia and Bosnia from where they migrated north during the Ottoman invasion. Bunjevci and Sokci were always aware of their Croatian ethnicity and thus Bunjeci and Sokci who remained in Craotia(Slavonia) were always declaring themselves as Croats and their nationality was never in question. Those in Vojvodina were under pressure first from Hungarians and later which is to this very day by Serbs. They pressure them to abadoned their Croatdom and to declare themselves as separate ethnic group as such they will recieve and(those that did so recieve) material help from Belgrade. Not to mention small ethnic groups are easier to assimilate then for example strong community like Croats who always sticked to each other.

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvaci
    Learn to use quote tags, none can track this mess

    its:

    [ Q U O T E ] bla bla bla [ / Q U O T E ]
    Leave no space in between
    As you can see i can use tags.I just dont use them,when i want to shorthen unecessary part of sentences..

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Krunoslav,Bunjevci's are Catholicized ethnic Serbs.
    SOKCI's are ethnic CROATS.

    About Bunjevci,we can see even from Zvaci's post that Bunjevci are Catholic Serbs.

    They became 'Croats' after litlle 'interventions' from Catholic bishops of Croatian origin.

    There are pure Serbian surnames "Bunjesevac" and "Bunjesanin".

    Zvaci-"If 'Serb' is declaring himself as Croat,he's Croat"

    So if Macedonian gypsy(Aki Rahimovski) declare himself as Croat,he's Croat?
    If Chinese declare himself as Serb,thus this mean that he is Serb?

    If white man declare himself as black,does this mean he's black?

    Krunoslav-"Bunjevci...where always aware of of their Croatian ethnicity.."
    As we can see even by Zvaci's post that this is not true.
    They first started to be mentioned as 'Croats',after ethnic Croatian bishop 'supported the notion' that Bunjevci are Croats.
    Most of Catholic bishops in Vojvodina,came from Croatia,since most of ethnic Hungarian and Slovak populations are PROTESTANT(Lutheran/Evagelists).

    As i said Sokci's are ethnic Croats.This is also how Vojvodinian Serbs call Croats.

    Krunoslav-"..they pressured them to abandon their Croatdom.."

    On contraire,actually Croatian catholic bishops pressured Bunjevci to declared themselves as Croats.
    Sokci's where not pressured,and they always considered themselves as Croats.
    Ethnic Croats from Serbia have double citizenship(Serbian/Croatian),which is not case with Croatian Serbs.

    Krunoslav-"..they recieve..materila help from Belgrade.."

    This is ultimate of Croatian arrogance.Actually CROATIAN goverment separate large ammount of money to 'convince' Catholic and Protestant Serbs that they are Croats.

    Yes,there are Prtotestant Serbs as well(Adventists).

    For example,in ROMANIA.Romanian goverment actually made official news,that Croatian goverment granted citizenship and pensions to people that declare themselves as Croats.Croatians also put pressure on Romanians to 'rename' protestant Serbisn population in Romanian Banat as 'Croats'.
    Since Croatians granted pensions to those who declare themselves as 'Croats',large ammount of Romanian GYPSIES began to declare themselves as Croats.

    So Croatian numbers in Romania have raised to 300%,out of nothing from 1999,onwards.
    Official numbers of those who declared as Croats in Romania where about 1.000 before that.

    Croatian are amongst smallest minority in Vojvodina.They exist,but in smaller numbers than current Croatian Serbs(which have not been ethnically cleansed).
    There are more Slovaks,then Croatians in Vojvodina.There are barely any village there which is purely Croatian,while there are entire towns which are PURELY Slovakians.

  9. #9
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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Quote Originally Posted by Luctor
    Krunoslav,Bunjevci's are Catholicized ethnic Serbs.
    SOKCI's are ethnic CROATS.
    Bunjevci and Sokco are both ethnicaly Croats. There are still Bunjevci and Sokci in Croatia and their nationality was never in question...unlike those Bunjeici and Sokci in Vojvodina. Why one must ask himself...though the answer is obvious...

    About Bunjevci,we can see even from Zvaci's post that Bunjevci are Catholic Serbs.

    They became 'Croats' after litlle 'interventions' from Catholic bishops of Croatian origin.
    Incorrect. They were aware of their nationality long beore that. Years of pressure from Serbs made some part of Bunjevci to proclaim thmselves separate ethnic population. In Vojvodina of some 6% of population are Bunjevci and Sokci. About 1,5% in recent yeaars started to declare themselves as Bunjevci NOT as Serb. Others are still calling themselves Croats.

    There are pure Serbian surnames "Bunjesevac" and "Bunjesanin".
    Yes and? There are Slovenians and Hungarians(and many others)with surname Horvat. Does that means they are Croats? Besides as I said Bunjevci are not Serbs. They are Croats. Even those who do not consider thmselves Croats don't consider themselves to be Serbs either. Not to mention Bunjevci are spekaing ikavian dialect which is true Croatian language spoken in whole Dalmatia, Bosnia and Slavonia in middle age.

    As we can see even by Zvaci's post that this is not true.
    They first started to be mentioned as 'Croats',after ethnic Croatian bishop 'supported the notion' that Bunjevci are Croats.
    Most of Catholic bishops in Vojvodina,came from Croatia,since most of ethnic Hungarian and Slovak populations are PROTESTANT(Lutheran/Evagelists).
    Bunjevci in Croatia and Slavonia never had their question of nationality. They were always Croats. Now all of sudden Bunjevci and Sokci in Vojvodina are not Croats....what a laugh

    On contraire,actually Croatian catholic bishops pressured Bunjevci to declared themselves as Croats.
    Sokci's where not pressured,and they always considered themselves as Croats.
    Ethnic Croats from Serbia have double citizenship(Serbian/Croatian),which is not case with Croatian Serbs.
    Incorrect. No one "pressured" them to be Croats. They decalred themselves as such. You cannot force anyone to be anything. You know that very well...

    This is ultimate of Croatian arrogance.Actually CROATIAN goverment separate large ammount of money to 'convince' Catholic and Protestant Serbs that they are Croats.
    Is it not true that Belgrade offered money to Bunjevci who would declare themselves as simply Bunjevci or more correctly as non-Croats? You can easily check that.

    Yes,there are Prtotestant Serbs as well(Adventists).
    Yes and there are Serbian minority in South Africa, they pratice voodoo magic

    For example,in ROMANIA.Romanian goverment actually made official news,that Croatian goverment granted citizenship and pensions to people that declare themselves as Croats.Croatians also put pressure on Romanians to 'rename' protestant Serbisn population in Romanian Banat as 'Croats'.
    Since Croatians granted pensions to those who declare themselves as 'Croats',large ammount of Romanian GYPSIES began to declare themselves as Croats.
    No such thing exists and is a product of your imagination.

    So Croatian numbers in Romania have raised to 300%,out of nothing from 1999,onwards.
    Official numbers of those who declared as Croats in Romania where about 1.000 before that.
    Out of nothing?

    Croatian are amongst smallest minority in Vojvodina.They exist,but in smaller numbers than current Croatian Serbs(which have not been ethnically cleansed).
    There are more Slovaks,then Croatians in Vojvodina.There are barely any village there which is purely Croatian,while there are entire towns which are PURELY Slovakians.
    Yes and? 3,5% of population in Vojvodina are Croats. Additional 1,5% are Bunjevci who are also Croats. In Croatia there are 4,5% of Serbs. Also no one is ethnically cleansed from Croatia. Those who didn't wanted to live in Croatia have left. If they want to come back they can if they didn't do anything against legally chosen goverment and the state of Croatia. If they don't want to come back even better...more room for us.

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    Post Re: Autochthonous Croats from SiCG

    Quote Originally Posted by v0da
    Do you consider Serbs living in Croatia to be Croatians?
    Only if they regard them selves as Croats.

    PS
    You might find this interesting if you're a Serb from Croatia.

    Strasbourg potvrdio stav hrvatskih sudova

    Subota, 7. kolovoza 2004., Vjesnikova panorama

    Iz Europskog suda za ljudska prava u Strasbourgu stigla je prošlog tjedna odluka koja rješava problem stanarskih prava, ali i daljnje pritiske na Hrvatsku zbog toga. Spor Kristine Blečić i hrvatske države rješio je strasburški sud ocijenivši da joj se nemože priznati stanarsko pravo kao vlasništvo, jer je ono samo 'pravo na korištenje'. Priznao je time stav hrvatskih sudova, a ovakovom je odlukom konačno s papira zbrisano pravo svima da od države traže da im vrati 'društvene' stanove u kojima su nekad živjeli.
    Drugim riječima, da nije bilo ovakve odluke Suda u Strasbourgu svi bi bivši korisnici stanarskog prava , kojima je ono otkazano , stekli pravo na povrat stana, naknadu i pravo na otkup.
    Brojke o takvim slučajevima su višestruko različite. Prema mišljenju OESS-a ih je 23 tisuće, norveško vijeće za izbjeglice bilježi 586, a Vladina uprava za prognanike, povratnike i izbjeglicezaprimila je dosad 7005 zahtjeva za povratkom Srba sa 'stanarskim pravom'. Prema tim podatcima, u nekadašnje ratne krajeve vratiti bi se htjela 6354 građanina srpske nacionalnosti, većinom u Vukovarsko-srijemsku županiju i grad Vukovar. Za povratak u Osječko-baranjsku županiju i Karlovačku županiju podnjeli su 651 zahtjev i to je sve u proteklih godinu dana otkako je krenula kampanja za povrat stanara društvenih stanova zbog kojeg se pritiskalo svaku hrvatsku vlast.
    (...)
    Izbjegli Srbi su uglavnom u Hrvatskoj imali kuće i dobivali društvene stanove a da im se omogućio otkup i nakon što je stanarsko pravo ukinuto, kao što je tražila međunarodna zajednica, nanijele bi se višestruke nepravde. U 'njihovim društvenim stanovima' živjeli su nakon Domovinskog rata neki novi stanari Hrvati od kojih je večina te stanove i otkupila.
    (...)
    Odluku Suda za ljudska prava u Strasbourgu, kojom se ad acta stavlja problem stanarskog prava za mandata svih vlasti, voditelj misije OESS-a u Hrvatskoj, Peter Semneby, nije, čini se, dobro dočekao. Sudeći po prvim reakcijama, za njega su bivši nositelji stanarskog prava i dalje najteža kategorija povratnika. Isto mišljenje dijele i lideri Srba u Hrvatskoj, Milorad Pupovac, primjerice. U prvim izjavama on poručuje da strasbourgška odluka nije skinula s dnevnog reda stanarsko pravo. Točno, Pupovac je u pravu, ova vlast ga neće riješiti sve dok se ne zbrinu svi Srbi koji u Hrvatskoj nemaju imovinu, žele se vratiti a nemaju kamo jer su živjeli u društvenim stanovima, ali na Pupovčevu žalost, nijednu vlast više, očito je nakon odluke iz Strasbourga u slučaju Blečić, međunarodna zajednica neće moći politički pritiskati zbog toga što im neće omogućiti povrat stanarskog prava i otkup društvenih stanova.
    (...)
    Strasbourg je porazio i OESS koji sve ove godine tvrdi da su stanarsko pravo i vlasništvo ista kategorija. Hrvatska vlast nije imala dvojbi zašto to tvrde. P morali su opravdati svoju funkciju u Hrvatskoj, a ona se očito mogla braniti još samo na pitanju stanarskih prava, jer s povratom više nisu mogli igrati ping-pong kad su brojke najbolji argument. Vraćeno je dosad 17.226 kuća i stanova, a na povrat još čeka svega nešto više od 2000 zauzetih stambenih objekata, među kojima je i gotovo 700 kuća za koje vlasnici i nisu podnijeli zahtjev za povrat.
    Iz ruku im je izbijen prigovor za one kojima u zakonskom roku, do 31. prosinca 2002. imovina nije vraćena. NJima se isplačuje naknada od 7 DEM po kvadratnom metru i dosad ju je primilo 1209 vlasnika koji još nisu u mogućnosti koristiti svoje kuće. Iz proračuna je dosad isplaćeno 9.281.324,00 kuna.
    Od prijašnjih petstotinjak bespravno useljenih stanara, danas ih je samo 55. Rok za njihovo iseljenje istekao je prije mjesec dana, 30. lipnja, no sudskim će rješenjima biti deložirani.
    OESS-u i drugim kritičarima povratka prognanika, konkretno Srba, poništeni su ovime dosadašnji argumenti. Možda će još neko vrijeme moći natezati oko toga ima li ili ne vlast mogućnost za njihov smještaj, ali ne i oko toga jesu li Srbi sa stanarskim pravom 'vlasnici' ili 'stanari' društvenih stanova koje treba obeštetiti.

    Miroslava Rožanković


    Internet links:
    http://www.vlada.hr/default.asp?ru=2...8&sid=&jezik=1
    http://www.hsp1861.hr/vijesti3/030227sa.htm

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