View Poll Results: Do you think that the earth is spherical?

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  • Yes, this has been proven a long time ago.

    10 47.62%
  • No, it is flat or convex, one has to go with the new evidence.

    2 9.52%
  • I am no longer entirely sure...

    9 42.86%
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Thread: Convex Earth: The Documentary, 2018

  1. #11
    Senior Member Mööv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleyer View Post
    It has nothing to do with conspiracies but with air rarity. Fly too high and the oxygen becomes too sparse to fuel the engines.

    Again, nothing to do with conspiracies but with how the windows are made.

    I thought you were going on with yet another conspiracy. Good to know it is not so.
    But am I also supposed to believe that the Straight of Gibraltar is in France as the guy in the video says?
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    These flat earth people still exist? You can see the curvature of the earth from an airplane and if you have flown around the world you realize the curve keeps going.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammish View Post
    I've flown at 35000 feet over the Pacific, Puerto Vallarta to Los Angeles and you can very surely see the curve.
    I am not questioning your subjective impression, but it has been scientifically documented that it is very hard to clearly make out the earth's curve from such low altitudes; even more so from an airplane window, as one doesn't have a sufficiently wide angle of view.

    Visual daytime observations show that the minimum altitude at which curvature of the horizon can be detected is at or slightly below 35; 000 ft, providing that the field of view is wide (60°) and nearly cloud free.

    And, needless to say, the optical presence of a hard-to-discern curvature at such altitudes doesn't necessarily imply that it is caused by the sphericity of the earth. Light is known to bend and to refract when it penetrates air layers of different temperature and density and there could be other optical and physical phenomena responsible for it. E contrario, it could of course also well be so that the impression is caused by a factual spherical form.

    What would interest me, regardless of the final conclusion of which shape the earth has (I am open-minded and personally indifferent as to whether the earth is flat or round or convex or pear-shaped; I am just an interested observer of the discussion), how would those that firmly believe in the sphericity of the earth explain the outcome of the seven experiments that were narrated in the video?
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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    Visual daytime observations show that the minimum altitude at which curvature of the horizon can be detected is at or slightly below 35; 000 ft, providing that the field of view is wide (60°) and nearly cloud free.[/INDENT would those that firmly believe in the sphericity of the earth explain the outcome of the seven experiments that were narrated in the video?
    Well, to be honest, I haven't watched the videos yet, I was at work when I posted yesterday. But subjective observation aside, lets apply some logic to the question.

    Supposing the earth is not a sphere, but is some form of plane, how do you apply the current understanding of physics, especially that of gravity to a flat earth?

    Applying our current understanding of the universe, how do you explain the earth's mechanics?

    What would this flat earth be held in?

    What's outside?

    As you can see pretty soon you're back to it's turtles all the way down.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
    Last edited by Hammish; Saturday, March 31st, 2018 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Found a typo

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    Interesting discussion. I would however have to remind some of the participants that since this thread has been posted in a high-brow area (Miscellaneous Sciences > Natural Sciences & Environment), the topic is expected to be addressed in a similar (i.e. highbrow) manner. As Thorburn mentioned, the scope of this thread is truth-seeking - regardless what the truth may be or whom it may serve - and not mocking or laughing at "flat earthers" (the theory is actually about a convex-shaped and not flat earth per se). Considering this thread is located in a highbrow area, it is expected that your replies abide by the rules of highbrow discussion.

    Of course anyone is free to find entertaining such ideas - such as the earth being non-spherical - ridiculous or inaccurate, however if you decide to add your thoughts to the discussion, it will be expected that you also substantiate them, e.g. by adding your reasoning, quoting some relevant material or posing relevant questions. We treat this topic just as we would other controversial topics - opinions may differ but everyone is entitled to express them as long as they do so in a civil and non-provocative manner.

    And of course, it is recommendable to watch the video first, as some of the assertions or questions posed have already been dealt with in the video and the discussion centers first and foremost around what has been discovered in the video.

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleyer View Post
    You mean those images that look like paintings or CGIs? See what I said above about images of the earth. And no, there is no undisputable evidence that man has made it to what is called space, at least not in the "ISS" or on the Moon. But before you throw more ridiculizations without substantiation, examine the evidence:







    Space flight is such a big and common thing and so many people involved that it would be impossible have that big of a cover up for this many years. Satellites and GPS work I use it everyday or least Monday thru Friday. With the right equipment that the common person can buy, you can see them with your own eyes.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Wait, so at a later stage during the documentary they actually use the curvature of light to attempt to prove their model - yet first they send us through an hour of experiments that tells us that the earth has to be flat because light arrives on the opposing shore? Sorry, but that's a whole lot of research done to construct a theory that they actually go to debunk in the process without noticing.

    The way operational lenses operate is not that they start at a given distance - instead, the closer it passes a massive object, the more it will curve away. Use an apple and a torch and then wrap the apple in two different layers of plastic and illuminate it from varying distances and angles and you get a miniature model of what's happening in the solar-system (expect that the plastic wrapping will deflect the light much more effectively than our atmosphere).

    The supposed truth of the general theory of relativity (but again, it's a theory - and a far less established one than spherical earth) at the same time IS the only thing that makes any type of non-spherical earth possible, and I'd deduct this on a drunken advocatus-diaboli argument: if we assume that the universe bends itself, then this could equally be true for the earth, which might well be flat or convex and like the universe, might bend itself to lend a spherical appearance, challenging the possibility of three-dimensionality altogether, in reference to our two-dimensional vision. This theory wouldn't need all types of ice walls around the edges, actually, it would challenge perception altogether.

    The 'why doesn't water fall off the earth' argument can be tackled by simple experiments. One includes a coke-can and a glass of water createing a whirlpool with gravitational pull, pulling the air under. A second one lets water under electric current gravitate towards an axis and rotate around it (which would essentially mean that sending fat people near the ice wall would help their BMI, but tilt them). A third one includes a rotating sphere of any type of material that draws the water better towards its centre than the centrifugal forces of acceleration would allow it to fly off (a tennis ball suffices). A fourth one will roll a magnetic within a glass sphere around the floor and will show you how the glass sphere ("atmosphere" makes sure the magnet doesn't repel the water, whilst the magnet makes sure it isn't drawn towards the outside ("fall off the earth", repelling it away from its natural direction.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Wait, so at a later stage during the documentary they actually use the curvature of light to attempt to prove their model - yet first they send us through an hour of experiments that tells us that the earth has to be flat because light arrives on the opposing shore? Sorry, but that's a whole lot of research done to construct a theory that they actually go to debunk in the process without noticing.
    Had this discussion about light bending once with a young college student, he kept using fiber optic cables as an example of bending light. Since I know a thing or three about fiber optics and how they work, I could not get him to understand they light pulses do not "bend" they reflect off the wall of the glass strand of the fiber. Bending and reflecting are not the same. Also modern rifle optics work by reflection in stead of bending the light you receive back to you eyes.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post

    What would interest me, regardless of the final conclusion of which shape the earth has (I am open-minded and personally indifferent as to whether the earth is flat or round or convex or pear-shaped; I am just an interested observer of the discussion), how would those that firmly believe in the sphericity of the earth explain the outcome of the seven experiments that were narrated in the video?
    Oh come on!
    You can be indifferent to a moral issue in the sense that you don't care. Being indifferent as to a scientific statement means that you don't really care whether it's true or not, which would not make you a good "interested observer of the discussion" in the first place.


    Since this documentary opens with a quote of Schopenhauer and they seem to consider him an authority, how about this one:

    The art of not reading is a very important one. It consists in not taking an interest in whatever may be engaging the attention of the general public at any particular time. When some political or ecclesiastical pamphlet, or novel, or poem is making a great commotion, you should remember that he who writes for fools always finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading bad ones: for life is short. - Arthur Schopenhauer

    I reckon this goes for watching documentaries as well, hence I choose to spend my next 1,5 hours more wisely.
    (Just watching a couple of minutes randomly proves this has been a good choice by the way)

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  13. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammish View Post
    Well, to be honest, I haven't watched the videos yet, I was at work when I posted yesterday. But subjective observation aside, lets apply some logic to the question.

    Supposing the earth is not a sphere, but is some form of plane, how do you apply the current understanding of physics, especially that of gravity to a flat earth?
    I can see immediately that you never 'wasted' much time on the flat earth hypothesis because 'gravity' is a constant subject of taunting if not ridicule to flat-earthers. And, truth to be told, there are massive problems with the theory of gravity in mainstream physics.

    To flat-earthers, gravity in a Newtonian sense doesn't exist. They acknowledge the existence of a force that pulls denser objects towards the flat plane (causing effects such as buoyancy and the perception of an "up" and a "down"). But the majority doesn't believe in gravity, i. e. in all objects of mass mutually attracting each other, no matter what the distance. In other words, only the earth itself attracts, not each and every atom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammish View Post
    Applying our current understanding of the universe, how do you explain the earth's mechanics?

    What would this flat earth be held in?

    What's outside?
    Unresolved. Some believe in a dome, others don't. We would basically be back to the cosmology of the ancients.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Whatever it is, I don't think it leaves much room for naturalistic causes; a flat earth, even if it were an infinite plane, would require a creator (but not necessarily the Creator). It could be that we live in a simulation, a thesis that has become very popular amongst theoretical physicists. It could be that we live in a real "dome," a giant "space capsule" maybe, created by beings that came into existence in a naturalistic universe. Our ancestors maybe before they destroyed their real planet. Or before they got rid of us. Or aliens. The demiurge. Odin. Make your pick.

    But the majority would suggest that God created it and that what we see in the heavens is not a physical reality. Think in terms of Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammish View Post
    As you can see pretty soon you're back to it's turtles all the way down.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
    Yes, and I think this is what makes the concept of a globe floating in infinite space so attractive. You will not bump your nose at a border fence anytime soon. The underlying theoretical set of the big bang theory and of the four fundamental forces in nature is extremely elegant.

    But my point is this: In science, an absolute truth doesn't exist. Any theoretical model can be falsified by providing a single counter-example. So suppose experiments would have shown that a laser beam can hit the other end of a shore notwithstanding that there should be a bulge of water in its way preventing it from doing so ... where does it leave the globe model, once alternative explanations (such as refraction) equally fail to explain the phenomenon?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you have a scientific, inquiring mind, then check out the following one by Jon McIntyre. Maybe you can figure out what he did wrong. Because I couldn't. And yes, I am with you, it shouldn't be that way.



    The documentary in question, however, just took a big nosedive.



    The makers might appear this week on jeranism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleyer View Post
    You mean those images that look like paintings or CGIs? See what I said above about images of the earth. And no, there is no indisputable evidence that man has made it to what is called space, at least not in the "ISS" or on the Moon. But before you throw more ridiculizations without substantiation, examine the evidence:
    I have become an ISS denier recently, and the best of the many things that finally pushed me over the edge was the following:

    What has separated the astronauts in the ISS as well as the air they breathe and need for their survival for two decades from the vacuum of space in the extremely tough and challenging environment of space where the ISS has to withstand enormous temperature differences (its surface temperature reportedly changes from -200° C to 250° C and back to -200° C every 90 minutes)?

    Spoiler!
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    Oh man, I just can't, first video is 57 minutes, 57 seconds long, that's almost a degree... (did you see what I did there?).

    I made it until the beach ball.

    I once wrote a piece of software designed to help pilots plot their flight paths across a Mercator projection map of North America.

    You know what, I had to relearn a whole lot of complex math I hadn't thought of since school, you want to know why?

    Because, if someone was flying east to west, using this software, and it just described a straight line, they would actually be miles and miles away from the airports shown on the map and they could very well run out of fuel and have to land on a roadway, or crash.

    North to south flights, don't have this problem... it's called "Great Circle Routes", you can look it up.

    You're not telling me all that complex math was in vain are you?

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