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Thread: The German Americans: An Ethnic Experience

  1. #181
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    Re: German North America

    For GermanBund:

    The Question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    What I do not understand is how a German, who leaves Germany and moves to another country, etc. is no longer a German or allowed to claim their German heritage and ancestry.

    Maybe this misunderstanding is simply a matter of semantics. For example, I agree that a "German American" is purely American and of American citizenship; howver, they are also of German ancestry (sometimes wholly). By calling themselves a German-American, "German" becomes an adjective to describe which type of American the individual is and of what their heritage is. It isn't used to denote that the individual is a German citizen and an American both. I do not believe, that a German who comes to American ceases in being a German. If you believe this, at what point does the individual cease being of German ancestry, in your opinion, and is simply an American only, devoid of any other ancestry? First generation? Second generation? Eighth generation? What precise point does a German who moves away from Germany (and goes to any non-specific country) cease in being German?
    The Response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop
    You surely have heard the term "volksdeutsch" before. It basically means being of German ancestry but holding citizenship of a different country and living outside German borders.
    For example, some hundred years ago the Russians offered farming land to German farmers who at this time had trouble finding land in Germany. Many Germans moved to Russia and began building German communities over there. These people are called "Volksdeutsche" as opposed to "Reichsdeutsche", which describes Germans holding German citizenship and living inside German borders. They identified themselves as Germans, kept loyal to their heritage over the centuries and have payed a high price for it. You can do some research on the word "Gulag", if you don´t know what it means already.

    Regarding America, people of predominantly German ancestry living in America are volksdeutsch as long as they identify themselves as such and reject being American. How can you be loyal to two cultures at the same time, especially when one is choking the other and is proud of its subjugation? Most of these self proclaimed German-Americans are just a bunch of idiots who use their ancestry to have an interesting story to tell about their background. Where is their ancestry when it could bring them disadvantage? How is it possible that the largest ethnic group in the US was not able to prevent the involvement in two world wars against their own people and the (continued) occupation of Germany?

    My deepest respect for the true German minorities everywhere in the world and the uttermost scorn for the traitors who wave flags of hostile nations and dare claiming kinship.

  2. #182
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    Re: German North America

    Hmmm...like Jennifer's view better.

    Define "German" for me then?

    So during WWII, I probably would have joined the American Bund and been thrown in jail as a spy after December 11th, 1941. Would that have satisfied you? Being a German-American is still German to me. At least my government hasn't outlawed National Socialism or our race's symbols (i.e., the swastika). Zyklop just seems "sarcastic" and "condascending" (the Gulag remark especially...come on). Plus he asks how can you be loyal to two cultures when one is subjugating the other. German aren't even allowed legally to praise their own countries past? There's two cultures in Germany (anti-National Socialist and the hidden underground National Socialists). The vast majority of Germans TODAY are anti-National Socialist. So are they are no longer German then because they can't express their loyalty to National Socialism? National Socialism will unfortunately never rise again in the Fatherland. Sorry...but I don't consider the citizens of Germany no longer German because they are NOW anti-National Socialist.

    And "a bunch of idiots?" This is the guy you said is the "know-all and end-all" on the question of who is German? He should get his facts straight for one - Germans are NOT the largest ethnic group in America...the British (Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish) are. Sorry the Germans weren't able to overthrow that group...I AM. If my memory serves me correctly, German as the official language of the United States of America only lost by a single vote when this country was formed. I suppose if the USA SPOKE German, then we'd be "German" to you? Sorry, Aryan is a matter of race and that's all that matters...your race. Not what citizenship you hold, not what language you speak, etc. I'm of almost pure German ancestry, therefore I'm a German-American. You should be appreciative that there are Americans of German ancestry in the USA that hold the same racial views and high regard of the Fatherland that you do. We should be "shaking hands" not fighting over whether I'm a German or not. It would seem there are several anti-Americans on this forum. That's a shame since some of the most vehement pro-Germans are Americans. I'm interested to know if you consider Baldur von Schirach an American or a German since his mother was American?

    I totally agree with Jennifer...

  3. #183
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    Re: German North America

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    At least my government hasn't outlawed National Socialism or our race's symbols (i.e., the swastika). [...]
    German aren't even allowed legally to praise their own countries past?
    Believe it or not, german culture is more than 12 years of national socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    ...but I don't consider the citizens of Germany no longer German because they are NOW anti-National Socialist.
    Very funny, everyone who is against a jewish created pciture of NS is not german anymore, you are the true german here I bow to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    He should get his facts straight for one - Germans are NOT the largest ethnic group in America...the British (Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish) are.


    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    Sorry the Germans weren't able to overthrow that group...I AM. If my memory serves me correctly, German as the official language of the United States of America only lost by a single vote when this country was formed. I suppose if the USA SPOKE German, then we'd be "German" to you?
    Good question, language is the soul of the culture, but you are not really english to me either, one can't answer that question, because it would be dependand on how you would act, and thus is just a "what if".
    I forgot the source of the citing, but a german general (Bismarck?) once said something like (can't find the exact cite)
    "That the americans speak english, is worth more than 50 divisions for England."

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    Sorry, Aryan is a matter of race and that's all that matters...your race. Not what citizenship you hold, not what language you speak, etc.
    Right, but German is not only a matter of race, it is actually a matter of citizenship. If we accept other aryans to become german, what the NS did, then we also accept that german's descendents can become part of another nation, they cease to be german, as much as we want the descendents of an English-German couple in Germany to cease to be English.

    You can't really think just because of aryan ancestry you become automatically german, I wrote it once, now I write it again, besides race you need the will to be german, and your deeds must support your will, but you have to reject any other loyalty to another country and in this regard Volk.

    And I am not anit-american in saying that germans can either be americna or german, if you want to be american, fine, but don't claim to be german then.
    Last edited by Jäger; Thursday, May 4th, 2006 at 10:22 AM.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  4. #184
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    Re: German North America

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger
    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    The vast majority of Germans TODAY are anti-National Socialist. So are they are no longer German then because they can't express their loyalty to National Socialism? National Socialism will unfortunately never rise again in the Fatherland. Sorry...but I don't consider the citizens of Germany no longer German because they are NOW anti-National Socialist.
    Very funny, everyone who is against a jewish created pciture of NS is not german anymore, you are the true german here I bow to you.
    I think maybe you didn't quite understand his statement here. There are quite a few negations in it, which complicates it somewhat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger
    Right, but German is not only a matter of race, it is actually a matter of citizenship. If we accept other aryans to become german, what the NS did, then we also accept that german's descendents can become part of another nation, they cease to be german, as much as we want the descendents of an English-German couple in Germany to cease to be English.

    You can't really think just because of aryan ancestry you become automatically german, I wrote it once, now I write it again, besides race you need the will to be german, and your deeds must support your will, but you have to reject any other loyalty to another country and in this regard Volk.
    German is a matter of citizenship? What citizenship? Are the Alsatians not German because of French citizenship? The folks in South Tyrol aren't German, but Italian? What about people like the Germans in Kazakhstan? Are the folks in Liechtenstein German? The Austrians? How about the folks in Zürich?

    And for that matter, must one be a citizen of the BRD to be a German? or of the Second Reich? And back when I was born, who were the real Germans, those in the BRD or those in the DDR? Or those in the Second Reich?

    The German ethnicity goes far beyond matters of citizenship or political loyalties, I think. Many Austrians, for example, are very proud to be Austrian and very loyal to the Austrian state — but their ethnicity is still German. Many ethnic Germans in Switzerland are very proud to be Swiss and very loyal to the Swiss state (a multinational state!), but they are still part of the German ethnicity.

    I don't think it is at all necessary for ethnic Germans to be loyal to any particular government or set of governments in order to maintain their ethnicity. There are no citizenship requirements or requirements of any kind of patriotism, nor are there restrictions based on these criteria. Ethnicity, or nationhood, is something you're just born into, unavoidably. There's no choosing one's nation, like there is with citizenship or patriotic loyalty. So there can be no denying one's nation, either. I can renounce my citizenship or shift my patriotic loyalties, or even forsake the language of my forefathers, but I will always be a member of my nation, and only death will stop that (of course, as a Christian, I believe that national distinction will extend beyond death, but that's another discussion). I think that in order to really love one's nation, one needs to accept that the nation transcends matters of citizenship and state and governmental loyalties. Otherwise, one is really loving something else and calling it nationalism.

  5. #185
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    Re: German North America

    I admit, I may have used the term citizenship loosly, but ultimately it boils down to this, and even if it is just a counter argument to race. Or is everyone who is of the same race as Germans, automatically a German?

    The question who actually is German, is a tough one, and I have no concrete answer, but if a man/woman becomes alien to german culture and life, in most cases we would talk about descendants of germans, why should I or anyone else consider him still German?

    In an ideal german state the citizenship would be the ultimate recognition, or at least a possible application .

    The question is, can someones descendants become german, and can someones descendants cease to be german?

    Both is possible. It is indeed a tough thing, to say who is and who is not, we had actually quite some debate about that regarding the Russian-Germans, the only way to determine this, besides race, is an objective and a subjective prequesite.
    The subjective is the will of the person in question.
    The objective one are his deeds.

    Anything else is just "Schall und Rauch"

    Loyalty is not demanded for some kind of government, but to the Life of germans itself.
    And additionally to that I can only speak of descendants because I don't believe one can cease to be what he just is

    p.s.: actually, the whole thing started more or less, because of the notion that one who can't speak german is not german, which I don't agree with, so GermanBund might be indeed German, I can't judge that over the internet
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  6. #186
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    AW: Re: German North America

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    Being a German-American is still German to me. At least my government hasn't outlawed National Socialism or our race's symbols (i.e., the swastika).
    Your goverment has outlawed them in Germany.

    Zyklop just seems "sarcastic" and "condascending" (the Gulag remark especially...come on).
    Not sarcastic at all, though I understand that as a satisfied American you consider Gulags something funny.

    Plus he asks how can you be loyal to two cultures when one is subjugating the other. German aren't even allowed legally to praise their own countries past?
    Indeed. Have you actually ever been here?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


  7. #187
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    Re: AW: Re: German North America

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop
    Your goverment has outlawed them in Germany.
    Excuse me? And how exactly does America have say in Germany's freedom of speech laws in the year 2006? Freedom of speech and expression is highly promoted in America, if they were to run around forcing their laws on anyone I'd find it very hard to believe that they'd contradict their own home countries laws. The American government may dislike National Socialism, but part of what our country was built on is freedom of speech.

    The German government has gone crazy in preventing any discussion of National Socialism, Hitler, or any type of Fascist beliefs. The American FBI is not over in Germany arresting people for expressing their own political beliefs, the German government is.

    I'd like to see some proof of how America is controlling the German government and taking their freedom of speech rights away.

  8. #188
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    Re: German North America

    My last post...in response to Zyklop...

    My government? Yeah...President Bush is Chancellor of Germany TOO... Have your people vote for a Nationalist party if they are really "true at heart" STILL National Socialist. Doubt if the U.S. would "immediately invade" Germany due to a legally elected government that is NS.

    "Satisfied American?" I'm not satisfied. I'm very unsatisfied as long as Aryans are "bickering" with Aryans as seems to be going on in this forum.

    Gulags aren't "funny" considering they are instruments of Bolshevik-Jewish tyranny.

    Have I ever been to Germany? No. Despite my desire to see where my ancestors (yeah, sorry to say, but I still consider myself German despite you [Zyklop] and Thumelicus's opinions) dwelt as well as the Fuhrer and his followers fought for Aryan racialism, I don't see the difference in staying in my mongrelized-bastardized nation (USA - I'm NOT a big fan of the U.S.) and visting your Turk/Ethiopian/Arab-infested nation. Again, what's the difference? You can't see beyond "national borders" to the bigger picture of "Aryan racialism." Why did Hitler and Himmler authorize "Norwegian, Dutch, Balkan, etc." SS divisions if they only considered "national origin?" Why did they send funds to the American Bund if German-Americans are "second-class" citizens in THEIR eyes? Why was the NSDAP-AO in Hiterlist Germany established if National Socialism didn't care about "Germans abroad?" I'M DONE. Totally ridiculous... What a way to 'welcome' a new member to the forum... **disgust** AGAIN, not what I expected...sarcasm, "you are a liar", anti-Americanism towards pro-German Americans, etc. My recommendation is that the two aforementioned members of the forums "mature" and "evolve" beyond "national borders" and "embrace" your fellow Aryans in the struggle to establish a "world-wide" Germanic/Aryan cohesion that is only based on RACE, not "he/she can't speak German or he/she was born within the national borders so..."

    Man, I'm tired...gotta go. I'll stick with non-German-American issues on this forum...

  9. #189
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    AW: Re: German North America

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanBund
    My last post...in response to Zyklop...

    My government? Yeah...President Bush is Chancellor of Germany TOO... Have your people vote for a Nationalist party if they are really "true at heart" STILL National Socialist.Doubt if the U.S. would "immediately invade" Germany due to a legally elected government that is NS.
    Are you aware that there is no peace-treaty between Germany and the Allies since 60 years now? According to international law, we are still at war. The creation of the Federal Republic of Germany was an Allied appointed transitional solution. No need to "immediately invade" Germany, your occupation troops have never left. Or do you think they are here to protect us from the communists?
    "Satisfied American?" I'm not satisfied. I'm very unsatisfied as long as Aryans are "bickering" with Aryans as seems to be going on in this forum.
    Well, personally I have dropped that outdated term long time ago. But well, I´m a German first and foremost and only after this Germanic or "Aryan".

    Have I ever been to Germany? No. Despite my desire to see where my ancestors (yeah, sorry to say, but I still consider myself German despite you [Zyklop] and Thumelicus's opinions) dwelt as well as the Fuhrer and his followers fought for Aryan racialism, I don't see the difference in staying in my mongrelized-bastardized nation (USA - I'm NOT a big fan of the U.S.) and visting your Turk/Ethiopian/Arab-infested nation. Again, what's the difference?
    I see, you didn´t read my post at all. Actually I thought my example of the Russia-Germans would be easy enough to be understood by even the simpliest mind. But then again it´s not my fault that you are too lazy to read.

    You can't see beyond "national borders" to the bigger picture of "Aryan racialism."
    National borders have not much meaning to me in this context. I don´t know where you got that idea.

    Why did Hitler and Himmler authorize "Norwegian, Dutch, Balkan, etc." SS divisions if they only considered "national origin?" Why did they send funds to the American Bund if German-Americans are "second-class" citizens in THEIR eyes?
    Who said that Germans living in America are second class Germans? If you read my post again you would find out that I support them. This whole discussion has something surreal.

    Why was the NSDAP-AO in Hiterlist Germany established if National Socialism didn't care about "Germans abroad?" I'M DONE. Totally ridiculous... What a way to 'welcome' a new member to the forum... **disgust** AGAIN, not what I expected...sarcasm, "you are a liar", anti-Americanism towards pro-German Americans, etc.
    Well, if you twist people´s words and additionally applaud the destruction of Germany with statements that doing not so would have been "non-Germanic" you shouldn´t be suprised when it fires back at you. Or do you think people should adapt their beliefs so that you feel comfortable here? Did someone force you to join the Free Speech forum? I made the thread there for a reason.

    that is only based on RACE, not "he/she can't speak German or he/she was born within the national borders so..."
    Exactly! That´s what I´m trying to say all the time. Where is your problem?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


  10. #190
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    Re: German North America

    Zyklop
    Did someone force you to join the Free Speech forum? I made the thread there for a reason.
    I am glad you made the above statment, Zyklop. This gives me the opportunity to respond. Thank you.

    Zyklop
    Have you actually ever been here?
    I have been there, many times. I spend the first 18 years of my life there.
    Like the CSA, like the U.S. today, Germany is a conquered nation. And occupied.

    My question is: What are y'all doing about your problems?

    So far much of what I have read in the forum, especially in the German posts, is a "hatred" against everything that is "American." And this hate is directed not just toward the U.S. government, but against the Bevoelkerung as well, since we are, among other things, nothing but a "Dreckvolk."

    There are millions of people living in what is known as the U.S., descendants of the Germanic people and others, who do NOT agree with what the U.S. government has done in the past nor what it is doing today. Though we have a little more freedom over here thanks to men like Patrick Henry and what is left of the Bill of Rights (increasingly less secondary to judicial tyranny among other things) WE ARE LIMITED VERY MUCH, JUST LIKE THE GERMANS to what can be done to change things. And unlike so many of my German "brothers and sisters" I do not wish for America to be reduced to another Third World country nor do I wish for America's destruction. Becoming a Third World country would of course be our demise.

    CHANGE YES, but certainly not our demise.

    For true liberty - Georgia

    “Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less.” Robert E. Lee

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