Non-White admixture in Dutch and Belgians

[nemo]

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/20...dutch-and.html

[Dr. Solar Wolff]

Lessons learned in this article could also apply very well to a small and now completely submerged Neanderthal inheritance in Europeans. Note the number of great-great, etc. grandparents and the woman who knew she was part African yet showed no genetic evidence for this.

[Siegfried]

So other than the Negro admixture, this Asian we may assume it to be Indonesian, as this was the source for Dutch colonialism in Asia.

Probably true. I've met quite a few 'Dutch' with features I suspect come from an Indonesian source.

Negligible as far as phenotype goes, but not negligible with regards to genotype.

You think a person with 254 European ancestors out of 256 has a significant amount of non-White genes? I think that's highly unlikely. If we won't even accept people who are 254/256 European and look Nordish as proper Whites, we can basically discard most of Portugal, and probably a huge segment of our race. The 15/16 'rule of the thumb' is more reasonable, imho.
Besides, Y-chromosomes and mtDNA are notoriously unreliable when it comes to determining race, especially on the individual level. Taking our limited understanding of genetics into account, we'd better use a combination of methods to accurately determine an individual's race, including assessments of autosomal genes, Y-chromosomes, mtDNA, pigmentation and morphology of the soft parts, skeletal build, etc.

[Gil]

If we won't even accept people who are 254/256 European and look Nordish as proper Whites, we can basically discard most of Portugal, and probably a huge segment of our race. ... we'd better use a combination of methods to accurately determine an individual's race, including assessments of autosomal genes, Y-chromosomes, mtDNA, pigmentation and morphology of the soft parts, skeletal build, etc.

Two points:

1st: Most Portuguese are, as you put it, "proper whites", with Southern Mediterranean phenotypes. Or can't you see behind the difference of "tanned" and "black-skinned"?

2nd: An analysis of Y-chomosomes, mtDNA and osteology of the Portuguese people points to a gracile mediterranean type with some occasional "stronger built" types, making the vast majority of the portuguese population atlanto-meds and also large a percentage of dinaric-mediterranean and alpine-mediterranean types.
Read any statistics about births in Portugal and you'll see that from 1980 forwards there has been a progressive decline in inter-racial marriages and mixed-race births. If anything, a large amount of slavic types are now present in Portugal due to large emigration numbers in the last 10 years.
Also, if you knew anything about portuguese culture you would see/read that mixed-race marriages have always been looked down upon and those who in fact happened were mainly in the African colonies. Like the dutchwho colonized Indonesia and had offspring with the antives so did some portuguese colonists. Their offspring, which in portuguese are called "mulatos" are present in modern day Portugal but the ever present trend is that "mulatos" either marry with other mulatos or sub-saharan african types.


Also, analysis of pigmentation, as Coon had already pointed out, should be made on non-exposed parts of the body.

Cheers

[Johannes de León]

I can't imagine any person from a traditional and deeply religious rural background in Portugal

And I may assure you that at least 95% of the population until the 70's were deeply Catholic, it was heavily supported by the state, and those who didn't go to the church were viewed with suspicion. And during the Estado Novo, the state has put enough emphasis in cultural preservation.

After that the Catholic population started declining, I think the Second Vatican Council was also an important part of it, even though the Council ended almost ten years before the Carnation Revolution. After the Revolution, inumerous efforts were made to separate people, and especially the government, from the Church.

[Siegfried]

Most Portuguese are, as you put it, "proper whites", with Southern Mediterranean phenotypes. Or can't you see behind the difference of "tanned" and "black-skinned"?

I never claimed otherwise; in fact, I challenge you to find a single post of me that denies this. However, you also have to be fair; if 254/256 is not White enough, most of Portugal is non-White given the frequencies of non-European markers. If you read my post properly, you would have noticed that I explicitly stated that I prefer the 15/16 rule, which would mean most Portuguese are indeed White.

Read any statistics about births in Portugal and you'll see that from 1980 forwards there has been a progressive decline in inter-racial marriages and mixed-race births.

I'm very glad to hear this. I basically agree with the rest of your post.

[Gil]

...you also have to be fair; if 254/256 is not White enough, most of Portugal is non-White given the frequencies of non-European markers...

is a completely wrong notion that has been part of the extremist propaganda for some time now but has been revealed as false in many studies.
Just some proof that neither negroid dna nor from any other origin has changed the basic Y cromossome layout of the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula here.
I have to say that I agree with you and understand your opinions, I rather think that most "nordicists" or whatever you might want to call them, have no idea of how southern european cultures view mixed race and racial themes. Also, Mr. Kemp and his "book" make what i call "dumbass propaganda", this coming from a man I would say has more mixed heritage then all the population of Europe....

Cheers

[Siegfried]

is a completely wrong notion that has been part of the extremist propaganda for some time now but has been revealed as false in many studies.

I tend to think the truth is somewhere in the middle; there's probably quite some sub-Saharan ancestry among the inhabitants of Portugal, but it's certainly not significant enough to discard all Portuguese as 'muds' or whatever. Here's some interesting information regarding the racial condition of the Portuguese; http://www.angeltowns.com/members/ra...ortuguese.html

When it comes to a scientific assessment of human biodiversity, I believe we should not let our ideologies cloud our judgement.

Just some proof that neither negroid dna nor from any other origin has changed the basic Y cromossome layout of the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula here.

Thanks for that link.

I have to say that I agree with you and understand your opinions, I rather think that most "nordicists" or whatever you might want to call them, have no idea of how southern european cultures view mixed race and racial themes.

Probably true.

Also, Mr. Kemp and his "book" make what i call "dumbass propaganda"

There's something we can agree upon

[Siegfried]

Part of this thread has been moved to the Soap Operas, where it belongs; http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=15994

[Siegfried]

Alright, Siegfried. The soap opera is served. Now, can we go into more serious things, to the issue of the matter itself?

Sure.

What is that you say you notice in your fellow countrymen that makes you suspect this admixture? Please, explain both for Negro and Indonesian as separate.

I don't recall ever seeing a 'Dutch' man with clear Negroid admixture - or perhaps I did but dismissed him as an immigrant. In either case, I do not consider such people proper Dutch. As for the types with Indonesian characteristics, this manifests itself mainly in pigmentation, eye shape, etc to me. I'm sure skilled anthropologists would see other traits as well; the shape of the face looks a bit 'off' to me too, though I can't really put my finger on it.

And, how do you feel about these people?

They're not proper Dutch in my book.